Part of the reason my son attends the school he does (which does not have to take all of the state mandated tests because it is a private, independent, alternative school) is because they don't spend all of their time teaching to the test. I think the kids in his school are much better at "learning". They have been taught since kindergarten how to go about finding out information and doing research and they are always doing individual projects. The teachers set the bar for each individual student when they are being graded (they technically don't receive "grades" and are also not being compared to other students, just to their own prior accomplishments). In math they are often ahead of their grade level and are taught the reasoning behind the methods. It is good for school to be accountable for what students are learning (or not learning) but I think NCLB has gone overboard with kids being tested to death and not having the chance to really "learn" or to learn how to learn things on their own. Schools often don't have the time to teach "fun" stuff anymore. My mother is a teacher and one of her fellow teachers gave away her whole dinosaur curriculum to my son's school because that doesn't fit into the curriculum anymore with the tests the kids have to pass.

I agree with Healthy. Let's keep this thread on topic. Please start a new thread for discussions of another topic.

This discussion has gone off-topic. The Fordham study is here: www.edexcellence.net/detail/news.cfm?news_id=732&id=92

It would be best for people who have other concerns to address them via private email or in a new posting.

Dear Professional Mom,
Can I ask you what state you live in and whether the community you live in or the school your child attends is in an average-above average economic area?

Does anyone know why a child who is taught to read and can read performs poorly on state tests or why a child who is shown how to add, subtract, multiply and divide performs poorly?
If a child cannot do either of the above successfully, should they child be promoted to the next year? Shouldn't someone notice in November or January of the school year that particular children are having difficulty, analyze why and figure out a solution BEFORE the exams and BEFORE the child fails?
These are the questions I wonder about. These questions deal with responsibility. Whose responsibility is it for a child to master what was taught in school? Whose responsibility is it to make sure a child reads for twenty minutes every single day? Whose responsibility is it to make sure a child knows his/her times tables by heart? If parents don't do their job, NO ONE can help their children.
NCLB causes you problems? These are standards--basic measures of what a child should be able to do at each level in school. These tests are not difficult! The problem is in the home. Parents do not make their children do homework. They do not take an interest. It is not a priority. Our children are testing in the 25th percentile internationally.
Children are excessively absent, do little homework, do not know their times tables, can barely add and subtract and forget about division. They should get a diploma that is award of accomplishment of meeting or exceeding the standards?
I should hire them to do my bookkeeping and find out I'm going to jail because they're math is wrong?

Do you know how many children the NCLB from lower economic incomes this test hinders? Do you know how many children with special needs the NCLB act hurts?

I wonder how many adults, parents, grandparents, journalists, owners of business/companies would have passed the testing with the NCLB act?
Do you think it hinders a students "can do" attitude to be nine years old in the first grade or eleven in the third?
I personally know a student who was asked to write for the school newspaper when she entered ninth grade. She had exceptional writing skills. A month before graduating she was told she would not be able to receive her graduation certificate or graduate (She was told she could go through the motions of graduation.) because she couldn't pass the math FCAT test required for graduation. She dropped out and got her GED. I was not impressed by the study.

You're right, andyhanfmann, if this wre a perfect world, but, unfortunately, it is not. Gifted children are most probably the intellectual superiors of most of their teachers. It is rare to come across a really intelligent teacher. Many didn't complete H.S., got GED's and went on to open enrollment colleges to become elementary education majors. So, you can scream and yell at teachers and districts all you want, you cannot get an institution to provide you with something they don't have. But, you can get a child what he needs from a library by feeding that intellectual curiousity. I know it sounds cynical, I'm actually quite an optimist, but it is the reality of the public school system. The private school systems , too.. The only real reason they do better is because parents are PAYING money and watch that their kids don't mess up.

Shane,
Without knowing your child, my two cents is limited in usefulness. You may want to learn your rights as a parent of a gifted student in Florida. You will then be able to request ameeting at your son's school. By rights, they cannot refuse. You may want to review his educational plan to see if the curriculum is sufficiently well matched to ability to keep your son engaged and challenged. Some of this will take research on your part. Google around on your computer and learn. Contact donnajo.smith@fldoe and ask for the handbook for parents of children who are gifted in Florida. A great educational plan is key.
I don't know your son one bit so the next part is possibly all wrong. Some gifted children begin to disengage from learning when bored. This is not the goal of gifted programming. As a parent, you can monitor for this trait and meet with the school as appropriate.

ShaneEvan, I'm not sure if people will see your question "buried" in this older discussion...If you start a new posting, I think you'll get more responses.

I believe we have been lucky. My son who was given a opportunity to attend a middle school(for the gifted)when we moved to Florida. I as a Mom knew then that his needs would be met. We also came from New Jersey,I believe the schools there gave him the right start, they put him in enrichment programs. My concerns are somewhat different for my son who will be fifteen soon.What confuses me I think,is that he shows me none of the values I consider important(He feels he works well without) what I consider academic discipline, perseverance. Maybe since they have the IQ they do it is all to easy? He does not care either if he is a 4.O student or three point five range. Though he plans to become a professor in college,either the math or science field. Maybe his plans are to deep for me, or perhaps I should just give my support any suggestions? Thank You all.

Florida has educational plans. While they are supposed to be written for the individual child, it may take a wise parent to be sure that happens. We parents also have rights in Florida. They sound boring but they are helpful if you understand the big picture.
Some states have NO gifted services. Gifted ed is a state decision as there is no federal legislation.

Healthy11,
The first paragraph, when you tried to restate the intent of my post, was a perfect translation. If posters read the study, the specifics will be clear.
To the poster who places so much responsibility on the home, I have a different version. A common problem in gifted ed seems to be a poor match between what is
being taught and whether or not that would be something new to the gifted child. Too often, they rehash already mastered material. So, while home has its job to do, so do the schools to provide a meaningful education that results in a year's growth for having attended school. My two cents.

As the parent of a "2e" twice exceptional (gifted/LD) child I can only say that I wish it was as easy as "If you read to your child they will learn to love books if you actually spend time reading and make time to read and it is part of a daily family routine." Truthfully, it was because of the intensive intervention we have provided outside of school that the schools kept denying my son had a serious problem....My son will ask me, "why does everything have to be a teachable moment with you?" He knows I try to supplement his schooling in every way conceivable. He can meet their low NCLB expectations, but it's WAY below his cognitive ability level. How else do you explain a child with an IQ/GAI of 150 barely being able to spell or write a cohesive sentence? He is a visual-spatial, hands-on learner and most schools utilize auditory-sequential teaching methodologies. I have had to fight with the school systems to get him an IEP, so that he has the legal protection afforded to other students with disabilities. It shouldn't have to be so difficult for ALL children to "not be left behind," but gifted children who meet minimal expectations ARE being left to fend for themselves, and that's what the original poster was trying to convey. I don't want to get sidetracked from his main point.

While I agree a lot of parents could be more involved in their child's education, I have learned that it is not politically correct to suggest anything. It doesn't take a family to raise a child, it takes the whole village. I would love for my parents to be more involved, and I can encourage them to be more involved, but when it's all said and done, I can't influence them very much. No parent wants to hear about parenting from anyone else.

Teachers, and I am one, could also do more. I can only control what I do, so I try to individualize as much as I can, and challenge the students to achieve, no matter what their starting point.

If you read to your child they will learn to love books if you actually spend time reading and make time to read and it is part of a daily family routine. If one reads to a child as simply a chore, it becomes a chore not an enjoyable past time. Once the teachers have taught a child to read, it is the parents responsibility to reinforce that skill.
As far as gifted children go, supplementing their education is a parents job as well. Taking them to the library to read in depth information in whatever subject they are interested in is a parent's job. Most schools have accererated math programs but children are tracked in fourth grade and if they didn't master minor skills then they're not getting in to those classes later.
Many parents that are "involved" are involved at a meeting and school level and are not actively involved in their child's actual learning. They are not sitting down and spending time talking to the child and reinforcing their learning and nurturing their intellectual ability. They are spending their time fighting with teachers to teach their gifted kids more challenging work--well, a parent can take any project or assignment and have their kid do a very in depth research project that would knock the teacher's socks off if they took the time to do it. It would benefit the child to no end.
As far as special ed. goes, are you aware that the majority of students getting extra help in school are children who have low reading levels because no one at home is having them read for twenty minutes or more each night once they learn how to read? Parents have become totally dependent on the system to fill their needs and the system, any system will never do that. Look at our elderly. Do you think that a private nursing home will care for an elderly parent better than a public one? Or will an adult child who loves a parent care for him/her better with help? Or will an adult child
who is always there and always watching the facility better care for that elderly person?
The more aware anyone is of the needs of another the better able they are to fill those needs. The more a child learns outside of school and the more exposed he/she is to the world the more of a knowledge base is developed and then how school knowledge is applicable begins to make sense in the larger context. The "experts" are only working on theories that may or may not be viable in ten years. An aware parent knows their child's potential better than any so called "expert".
It's all about parenting, not about P.T.A. meetings. It's about talking to the teacher and finding out what your child needs, what will help and doing it at home. People only have two or three kids, how can they think a teacher can do more in a half an hour a day in a subject class with 22 or more children than a parent can do over the course of a lifetime with their children?
Pick: Blame or Responsibility and then live your life accordingly.

I know the state of Pennsylvania does grant IEPs for "Gifted Only" students, but I haven't heard of any others that do.

Unfortunately I would have to say that some students are being behind, and that some of those students are gifted. When you have a bunch of students who can't read, it is natural to devote lots of time in bringing them back up to the appropriate level. That's little comfort for the student who wants to learn more though, but doesn't get help because they are "already smart".

I am a Special Education teacher and I firmly believe that each student should have an IEP - what are their strengths/weaknesses, what goals do we want to reach, and how are we going to reach those goals. Looking at how public schools are failing at IEP's for LD students, I would doubt they would want to take on even more, albeit more fulfilling work.

I believe the intent of the original post was to discuss children who are gifted, and who are being "left behind" because NCLB has such a low bar of achievement expectation. All children deserve to learn, from whatever point they're starting from. The brightest are often being left to fend for themselves, because they already meet minimum grade level standards, and the school's aren't worried about how they'll do on the testing.

ProfMom, while parental input can help children, I believe it's an oversimplification to say that doing well in school is completely dependent on what the attitude is at home. It's similar to saying, "if you read to your child, they'll learn to read and love books." Some children have true learning disabilities, and teachers and schools are supposed to be the trained experts in education. Many parents entrust those professionals to have the knowledge and training to use the proper methodologies to help their children "break the code," whether it be in learning how to read or do math, etc. If you read the pleas of many parents in the "learning and attention difficulties groups" they are VERY involved and concerned about their children and are trying to address the issues, but do sometimes find the school "system" unwilling to work with them. There must be ongoing communication between home and school to help all students to reach their maximum potentials.

So, what? Standardized tests are a form of measurement -- a ruler, if you will. The purpose of the school is to make sure the child can use the ruler to measure, to figure out math problems, to know the names of the measured increments on the ruler and to use it in math and in real life. The purpose of the standardized tests is to see if the child can use that ruler. Passing means he knows what a ruler is and the scores go up from there and so does the thinking and analytical ability with the amount of knowledge gained in ruler use. Instead of "blaming" NCLB "Testing, if parents took an active role in making sure little Bart could use his ruler and why he needs to use his ruler well," and also learned what he's supposed to be doing in math with that ruler, his grades would improve.
Almost every answer to all trhe parental complaints posted is to watch and teach your children what they need to know. Assuming that any institution is a substitute for your input as a parent is a mistake. If parents don't take control aand an active interest in what their children are doing in school, socially, with their friends and assume it's someone else's responsibility to teach them everything and look to blame the "system" for the child's failures--then one is using their energy in a wasteful manner fighting a system that is just indicating that some children are not getting it. Why aren't they getting it is the real question. Why are the parents doing about a child that is borderline failing in math? How did a report card arrive home with a failinhg grade--didn't the parent ask to see the tests during the semester? Did the parent not ask to see the tests? Is the parent out to lunch? Does the pasrent know little Bart can't do his multiplication tables? Did the parent ever quiz the child on multiplication? The schools and the teacher cannot make little Bart do his work--only the parent can if they're aware there's work to be done.
Besides, all these standardized tests are so easy. They are written on the most basic level of what is expected at any subject grade level that they should function as a huge red alert to any parent if a child does poorly. Doing well in school is completely dependent on what the attitude is at home.

Wow. I was reading CoolDad's response. I am a teacher and I don't even know where to begin. There are still high achievers, but probably fewer as the state school teach to the test more and more. It is actually against the rules for tests such as the Iowa to actually study for the test and do test mock-ups. Teachers should not be teaching to the test, but instead should be covering the material like they are supposed to anyway.

We as a society are now set up to where there are two sides to everything - you either belong/agree to one side, or you agree/belong to the other side. There is no middle ground. Just look at politics to see what I mean. Now we are in the, "Oh my goodness! We have to teach to the test because there is a test" phase. Soon we will swing back to have no standardized testing at all phase. Isn't there a middle ground?

CoolDad,
I agree with Healthy that standardized test scores in many charter schools are known to exceed those in Public schools, and these results have been noted recently in Caifornia and New York.
We had a wonderful experience in our last school because it was a charter and was progressive. It was a rich, challenging curriculum that emphasized self-direction, individuality, independence and choice, and taught in a way one would involve students who are gifted. There was not an emphasis on standardized tesitng, because it was not in the school's philosphy, but they did participate and were held to the same standards. We did seem to have more identified LD kids because their parents had them diagnosed independently, as opposed to the previous school which refused to acknowlwede the issue, but the enviroment also allowed them to express their giftedness. That was 3 years ago and my son hasn't even been covering what he already did in his charter school in 4th grade. They may not even get to some of the curriculum they were able to cover until High school and some things, like the process of publishing a story, maybe never.


However, you do have an important point. I can see districts resorting to almost anything to play the compliance game wiht NCLB. I'm also wondering if you are thinking of the schools they create to dump kids into, a differnt type of "alternative" school. To me, that is a form of violence. We have at least one of those in our district ,which is the complete opposite of our experience in an "alternative" or charter, and they are starting to get kids out of there.
Also, thank you for the background on how it all started. We had a teacher/administrator from our first school (which was a nightmare) working on it also and she was a "nutbag", but I can't go into that here. I'll just say, the opposite of someone who should be working with kids or who understood the purpose of education- and had an orientation that was very monetary.
Thank you for your post. It really shows how careful one has to be in allowing any district to place a child and it is important to be aware of the motives that can influence that decision.

CoolDad, I want to be sure people understand that all charter schools are NOT the same, just as no two public, private, parochial, Montessori, or any other schools are the same.

Some charter schools are very high-performing, with waiting lists and lotteries used for admission...Here's additional information about some of them: www.edreform.com/csoy/schools.htm

Are parents aware that the state standardized tests, which pre-dated the No Child Left Behind Act [NCLB] are the result of a graduate student's dissertation thesis?

Are parents aware that the state standardized tests used as an evaluation tool under NCLB do not really measure student performance, but teacher/school performance?

Are parents aware that schools do not want students who do not do well on the state standardized tests because they lower the NCLB compliance scores of the schools where the students are in attendance?

Are parents aware that charter and other specialty schools are created as a place to ship off the students who score low on the state standardized tests?

Are parents aware that students sent to charter or specialty schools are NOT counted as drop-out or failures against the school from which the student came, which means that the sending school has no negative report on the NCLB measurements?

Are parents aware that the charter and specialty schools are not subject to the same measurements and standards under the NCLB as the original school from which the students came?

Are parents aware that these charter and specialty schools will allow a student to remain in school until they pass the state standardized test for as many years as it takes?

Are parents aware that when the student of a charter or specialty school drops out because they cannot pass the state standardized test that these dropouts are not counted as dropouts against the sending school OR the charter/specialty school?

Are parents aware that the charter and specialty schools are not there to helpt the students, but to increase the compliance scores of the original sending school under the NCLB?

Is there any question as to the validity of the Fordham study?

Snowflake is exactly on target. Much depends on the state framework and the parent's ability to use the framework to their child's advantage. In Florida, I use the words "observable and measurable growth" all the time in developing the educational plan. I exercise my procedural safeguards, use documentation, assessment data, and meet often. We even have a chance to file a formal complaint to the state. Imho, in my state, it all comes down to being able to guide the school to write a good educational plan. I refuse to
accept one unless I feel it owuld actually result in my children making appropriate gains for attending school for 180 days. Also, check if yor state has a Gifted Specialist. If so, email them for all available resources.
Florida has an excellent primer for parents.

MomfromMA,
You are right that not one child should be considered that way. To my dismay though, I've been learning that schools are not required to maximize any child's potential or even make learning a meaningful experience for them.

" They are also left to fall behind because most schools don't bother with GAI scores and can label them stupid or " not worth it" and not have to invest in them."

Well, I do not know ONE kid, whatever his IQ or GAI, who should be considered like that. Every kid should be taught so that they get the maximum of their possibilities, and according to their learning styles.

It is a sad thing when a kid is openly despised by the school because he/she is considered " stupid". It would be a very sad thing that parents or teachers would feel this way.

Snowflake: You raise an important issue, one that I think Andy is fully aware of, the failure of NCLB to meet the needs of 2E kids -- bright kids with learning disabilities.

They slip through the cracks and are often the most underserved group of all...

Andyhanfman,
Our school is the oppsite, though. My child is met with open disdain from otherr parents and we both expereince exclusion when he attends workshops that only certain kids, are thought of as "worthy" to attend, in spite of his abilty, and there is a definite investment in not acknowledgng giftedness amoung children who learn differntly. TAG parents are given positions of power right off the abt and more say, and it is made obvious to all of the parents and kids which ones are assigned a role as whom to exclude, blame, and call "retarded", anda which ones are elite, "worth it" and "better". They recieve these cues very blatently from the newsletter each week. One mom confided in me that she gets her kids to work by telling them they don't want to be in a class with "those other children", do they? So I have found that for many people it is elitist, and everyone is trying to get into that group even if they have no understanding of why or what it means, evn if their kids would hate it. Most of our school is actually TAG so I don't think those numbers quite add up.
I know this is opposite of the intention of gifted education, but most of the people who are involved in our school sure use it this way because it works for them. Also, we were informed that our spec ed budget, for has no money at all - zero- for reading or academics , only life skills training , has now gone into a pool with TAG, which is recieving additional funding as well. So thedesignmated "drone" kids, whom Albert Einstein and Thomas Edison would have been grouped with are left to rot special ed classes to collect extra money for the school, while being labeled and excluded from things - sometimes even mainstream education- where they could actually do well and maybe even excel to make a differnce for the rest of the world.
They are also left to fall behind because most schools don't bother with GAI scores and can label them stupid or " not worth it" and not have to invest in them.

As far as I'm concerned, NCLB is an abomination, because the "bar" for achievement, as low as it may be, isn't even the same across the U.S. Here's a link that may be of interest to some people, as far as making state-to-state comparisons: community.greatschools.net/advice/184/Helpful-websites-when-seeking-info-about-HOW-SCHOOLS-COMPARE-STATE-TO-STATE-

Snowflake,
I am glad to find another person who is quite iinterested in the pathetic NCLB accountability systems. My state's does not reqire the gifted to learn much since you are a winner if you are proficient.
I am also glad you tire of hearing people call gifted programs elitist. Do we gifted advocates suggest their children should go to school for 180 days to learn little?
I don't and I wouldn't so I have little patience for such a
descriptor. Googling In Praise of Elitism by Gallagher or Delisle is a great essay on this opinion. Then we have to hear how it is better education , as if these programs are funded well. In Florida, gifted money legally can go to any specil needs child so guess how much goes to the gifted when there are others far from proficiency. Some states offer nothing. Some states dropped programming to pay for costs of other needs. GW creates budgets with zero dollars for gifted.
Apparently, few think a mind is a terrible thing to waste in a place called school. I certainly am and
make it my life's passion. I have about a zillion references of interest for anyone with a great deal of passion for the cause. My name is Diane.

blend,
We are in agreement. I am so pleased . It most certainly is a deceptive maneuver to close an achievement gap by holding down the top. For gifted advocates, you may like to google "Proficiency is not enough" by Carole Tomlinsen. How misguided is a national policy which only takes into account some of America's learners! What a recipe for falling farther behind in a global market. NCLB haters might like the website of Susan OHanian.

lilend, I like the way you stated that:

"I figure that means that was their goal from the beginning and they've achieved it, no matter how shocking it sounds"

For me, it also rings true, alhtough I don;t see the children most in need of remediation getting it, either, and as the article says, neither group are considered to be the ones that are "worth it". It seems to me also that they are not getting the financial incentives provided by NCLB for investing in any of these children in a way that will actually help them.

I think everyone should read this article that was recommended to me. Thanks so much to Andyhanfman:

www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/510


Andy, I hope this is the one you meant but if not it is still important.

andyhanfman, that is a sensitive issue for me and I wasn't clear. Your post actually expressed much more clearly why the NCLB upsets me. We're wasting even more brains than before and our most brilliant brains this time. That may be an equalizer but of the worst possible kind.

My concern is that testing often excludes the most gifted children who need these kinds of services the most. TAG is most often based on standardized testing because it is the easiset to administer and least expensive, even though it doesn't identify many of the children the program is meant to serve, and performance on these tests does not in itself always mean that a chid is gifted or would be benefiited by being placed in an accelerated program. Some kids have no interst in them and parents want to get them out. So I don't think being part of an athletic team is a direct comparison. I do believe, however, that the schools are focused on mediocrity. For example, my son was corrected (and ostentatiously looked down on by the rest of his class) for giving an answer that his teacher didn't even know about the class of a certain amphibian (at 7 years old). Then he was told that he was wrong, and that the correct answer, and what he should have said was "animal" and nothing more about it. And what evades most people is the that the word "standard" means "norm", it doesn't mean "better" or to exceed the expected norm. Also, I was informed that words like "best " education need to be avoided when asking for anything in an IEP, because schools are not required to provide that. So mass education has an expectation of a very low "norm" which seems to have become the general goal for everyone.

Andy: The fact is that the United States has never respected the educational needs of gifted children -- it's always been about minimum standards.

How many times have you heard complaints noting that gifted programs are unfair since they aren't open to everyone but the same people don't complain that not everyone is eligible for first-string athletic teams?

Take a look at the conversations in the Gifted group here on Great Schools -- how many of them include posts with negative references to gifted and talented children? Lots.

HI Ilend,
I am not sure I understand your post. If you are, and you may not be, defending NCLB, I would have to disagree. First, if a title says no child left behind, the act should leave no child behind. This national act exxcludes the gifted from concern. When confronted with this, the typical response from NCLB supporters is it is not their fault and look at the districts. Districts have enormous pressures via NCLB and their mistaken accountability systems to raise the floor of a
achievement. The focus is lost on the top. What a convenient way to minimize the distance between the floor and ceiling by raising the floor and lowering the ceiling. Gifted advocates have been screaming for years but to deaf ears, How pathetic that by a national education act, our country purposefully limited its ability to compete in a global economy. Some folks find it funny that NCLB leaves children behind and others don't trust Education Trust. We have sacrificed our best young minds so others can become proficient.
Aren't all kids important? Not to Ms. Spellings I guess.

I don't like the "closing the achievement gap" idea. Every child should get the best, most suited, free education available, but that said, some people will always be more brilliant than others. When they say the gifted children are the ones left behind, it's not surprising, but when I hear that sentence, I figure that means that was their goal from the beginning and they've achieved it, no matter how shocking it sounds.

andyhanfmann-
I emailed Ms. Smith and hope to get a response soon. Thanks for the information.

Thanks, healthy. I will take a look tomorrow and may even pass this on to someone in my town with a particular interest in twice exceptional kids. No time left today. Thanks again!

LOL! Sounds familiar! I don't think people in the disrict realized right away who they were getting all these E-mails with links from!

Andyhanfmann, I just received this from another gifted group I belong to, and thought you might be interested:

giftedonlineconferences.ning.com/group/nclb
You are invited to join the NCLB group on OGTOC. Currently there is a
discussion focused on a petition drive to sign your name electronically
to a letter which contents can be found on the main page of OGTOC as
well as the group NCLB.
I have assigned Conny to be the NCLB group administrator. Please
discuss this very important matter along with other topics pertinent to the
NCLB group's focus i.e. educational reform, educational HOT NEWS geared
to the needs of gifted - all levels and those with disabilities.
Please feel free to invite others to join this group:)
Kindest regards,
Sally_L
network creator

Visit Gifted - OGTOC at: giftedonlineconferences.ning.com

Andyhanfmann, I don't know if you're still teaching, but it sounds like you have lots of "connections" so I encourage you to look at the many different resources I've listed for gifted/LD/ADHD students under the "2e" (twice exceptional) group at community.greatschools.net/groups/16042

I've never lived in FL, but I'm definitely one of those moms who has made it my job to "educate the educators." My son is ready to enter college, and sad to say, I'm still doing it, because people still aren't very aware.....

Snowflake,
The lack of appropriate service for gifted students
is the message of the Fordham study. Then, if your child has a learning disability above and beyond that,
the situation becomes tricky. I would have to guess that the student I taught who was twice exceptional was one of the "hardest to figure" students for me. The mom took it on as her job to educate me as I worked with her child.

dhlt,
Low ses means low socioeconomic status. The districts were given a choice in developing an alternate
eligibility set for underrepresented populations (the
studen groupss who had generally not been found or eligible for the program). These plans do differ among districts.
Another poster said your child failed to qualify. Now this would be different. If your child does not meet criteria, the situation changes. However a gifted child with a learning disability (having met criteria) can be served as a student eligible for both programs. One will be a primary exceptionality. Having a learning disability should not rule out gifted eligibility if criteria is met. I hope that Donnajo is helpful to you and your child.

We finally got the IEP but no appropriate services either way!

Yes, you got it right healthy11.

Not to interrupt, but dhfl, didn't you say the problem your daughter had in qualifying was that some of her achievement scores were more than a standard deviation and a half below her potential, but they weren't "so low" as to fall below a threshold level of 85?

Thanks for the info. Please define for me what is low SES? I'll have to email her and see what I can find out.

dhfl143,
The eligibility for gifted services in Florida should be the same if you are not low SES. If you fit in the low SES category, there are variations of eligibility options among the districts. Has your child gone to the Child Study team? Is your child being accomodated in any way? Are you aware that the state has a Gifted Specialist named Donnajo Smith? You can email her
at donnajo.smith @fldoe.org and seek her thoughts.
You also may want to ask her for the great parent primer which answers alot of parent concerns. I taught a gifted child who was also l.d. and have a background in special ed as well. My friend's child is dually classified as gifted and learning disabled. Your child must meet criteria,

I guess it depends on which district you reside in as to whether or not you get services for your child in Florida. My daughter is gifted in some areas and has ld in other areas and does not qualify for services on either end of the spectrum.

Check out a product called Achieve3000. This product sends students an article written at their Lexile target every day. Their classmates get the article emailed to them at their targeted lexile. The company creates the basic article at 12 different lexile levels. The teacher has activities and discussion guidance so that everyone can read at their targeted level but then discuss and complete projects as a group related to the topic. It is really an amazing product.

healthy11,
Thanks for that info. I am also very active in advocacy and was in fact one of three parent advocates to serve on our first statewide Gifted Advisory Committee among state officials, professors, district coordinators, and advocacy heads. I have also been invited to speak to a House Committee in our state capitol. I will be happy to communicate with the mother you noted if you wish to make the connection.

andyhanfmann, you mentioned that gifted/LD students would receive services in your state of FL under both labels...there's another FL poster, dhfl143, who has a gifted/LD child, and her child has been UNable to qualify for an IEP. She is very knowledgeable and active in advocacy areas. All I can guess is that your school district does things differently than hers. I hope she see this posting and comments.....

Thank you, Abrazomom. The goal of moving to proficiency has actually set a target of only mediocrity for all. When curriculum is not appropriately matched to the learner, poor learning results. NCLB has turned
schools into one size fits all facilities. Just as all six year olds don't wear the same size shoe, run at the same speed, or play the piano with the same ease, NOR DO THEY learn at the same speed nor have the same learning profiles. With so much pressure to create good data as per NCLB accountability, getting to mediocre is the finish line and lets schools off the hook for moving past mediocre to excellence. What a tragic deprivation of promise to our nation's future.

Unfortunately, when the instruction is aimed at the middle of the road, only 20% of the students progress well. Check out MetaMetrics.com, Lexile.com, and Quantiles.com. It has been proven that children need to read "targeted text" in order to progress in reading. Most of the textbooks used are not at student's targeted text level. You can get a reading list for your child from Lexile.com that targets not only their targeted text range but also their interests. The site also uses your computers location to search the nearest library to show you which of the selections are available there. It's really cool and IT'S FREE!!!! Schools need to start instructing each child with targeted text.

Snowflake,
Please count me as someone who agrees that education under NCLB accountability systems is all about making numbers look good and this becomes more important than teaching children well. I follow
articles on data and its manipulation as it relates to
schools. Many parents feel loyal to their child's school
because their child does well. Doing well does not equate to learning when it comes to gifted students.
I am sorry your child is not receiving gifted service due to a l.d. In my state, Florida, he would be served as having both labels.
I think a free appropriate education is purposely evasive. Under NCLB, mediocrity is success, What an odd expectation to set for our country's future!
I join you in saying that which is not happily received by many ears...and I thank you for saying it.

Thanks, I did that and didn't see any connection. The sad part about NCLB is that I don't see children with difficulties achieving either. It seems to be about school politics and playing a numbers game. The research I have read shows no improvement, for example, for children in special ed , and services for dyslexia are still usually not provided, even though many of these children are extremely gifted, but excluded from gifted programs as well. I see the whole educational system as a nightmare.
When I say things like that to other parents they get all tied in a knot about it- as well as having my dyslexic, technologically brilliant kid show up in an advanced class (outside of school, of course) because it was determined to be his level. At this point I believe in charter schools and individualized education because it doesn't help any child to place them in a category with a ceiling on how far they an go or what they are allowed to learn based on standardized testing, which NCLB is about.
I know what is like to be one of those kids who spent the days looking out the window bored into depression and eventually went to a special school for those of us with unusually high test scores, where being around "high ability students" became the norm. But I also know that it is not the only, or even main measure of giftedness and the idea of a free and appropriate education seems to be eluding mostly everyone.

To tell you the truth, I don't know but you can google Thomas B. Fordham Foundation and read about them and the study is right there as well. While the study is available, so is an In a nutshell summary and a brief slide show. National Association for Gifted Children ahs posted a response and this report is getting national attention.

Is the Fordham Institute in any way associated with Fordham University?

This topic has come up on other forums, where people acknowledge that the "bar" for minimal expected grade accomplishment is so low that some of our "brightest" students are being left behind. May I suggest that you also post this and the link to the study in Greatschool's Gifted Group at community.greatschools.net/groups/11537

I haven't read it yet but it looks very interesting.

You can download a free PDF copy of this report from:
www.edexcellence.net/template/index.cfm