First of all - sorry for the crazy formatting of my last response. It looks like when I ran spell check crazy things happened. Hopefully it wasn't too confusing!

Difficulty with hand writing is tough - my son has very poor handwriting skills, and it impacts everything from writing, self editing and math. He can barely read what he writes and has a very difficult time copying information. In the higher grades when students keep their own calendar/agenda, take notes and write more, it is very tough. As I said before, the laptop has been very helpful (although he isn't very good at typing, at least he can read the letters!)

You mention that his reading level is a bit behind his peers. Not seeing the academic testing, but taking in everything you have said so far, I strongly recommend you have his reading assessed. He may benefit from a multisensory, sequential, phonemic program to help jump start his skills. This will also make his spelling more automatic, freeing up working memory for other aspects of the writing task. Research is clear - early intervention gives the best results.

His private school may not be able to provide such services, but an outside tutor could help. In the meantime, if he has trouble reading, he may benefit from a reader, modified text, and should not be forced to read aloud in front of the class.

Even gifted kids with LD and or ADHD can struggle with school. But, with the proper supports they can be successful. Good for you for getting the testing done. I hope the school will implement the recommendations from the evaluation.

I don't know what kind of private school your son is at, but unless it's a gifted school, where they require a minimun IQ of 130 to stay, then I don't think you need to worry about it. A public school might be more likely to "group" kids by potential, with different "tracks" for honors students, regular, and slower learners, but most private schools seem to offer the same curriculum to all their students. Again, every school is different, but the fact your private school is willing to give your son accommodations, even though they aren't legally required to, sounds encouraging.

The school told us that they are not looking at scores but at the recommendations. Bu I am terrified the scores will damn my son’s potential. We will look into ADHD.

Okay, telling us that he's in a private setting helps to better explain the picture. Truthfully, since you don't appear to be trying to qualify your son for an official IEP in the public school system, and are just trying to identify a list of accommodations that the private school can adopt in his classroom, then the numeric scores for IQ aren't critical. The recommendations that the evaluator made, such as needing more time to complete work, seem logical. I don't know if your private school can provide any remediation to improve your son's academics, like his handwriting, (which is different from accommodations) but it's important to know that legally, private schools aren't obligated to do anything...No matter what, I would still urge you to consider the strong possibility of ADHD with a medical professional. Some people have found that if ADHD is treated, PSI and WMI functioning seem to improve, as does handwriting.

A private school.

VeryConfused,
Is your son attending a public school or a private one?

michellea,

Now that you mention it our son sees things others don’t at first glance. Example - given a set of 4 animals and asked why they are in a group, he said all are carnivores and found in Africa rather than that they are animals.

I will PM you the reports – I am figuring out the best way to do this.

He is behind peers in reading, Fountas Pinnel level E right now, so cant say how he does reading long passages. He reads his levelled books with ease and enjoyment.

Math was not a problem in his EC years. It began last year when he fell behind due to 3 weeks of back to back illness and he was put onto another teacher to catch up. She intimidated him and he hates math since.

He does not have much practice doing math. If there are 6 questions he will have done just 2 becasue the process of writing, colouring which would indicate the answers is very difficult for him. On a one to one, especially if you are writing, he is ok in Math.

His writing is illegible and he cannot read his own work. He can dictate funny stories and poems. Coherent and full of facts. Pat comes the reply when asked a question.

Will check out the tracking issue, but I think we have looked into this when we did a eye examination last year.

Why did we do the tests - the school wanted guidelines on how to best support his needs. They said the WISC would offer insights.

I AM surprised by the results. A borderline WMI or PSI suggests slow response times which I just do not see.

Working memory and processing speed impact everything a child does in the classroom. It can impact how efficiently and accurately he takes in new information, connects it to information he already knows and is able to generalize it. On the output side you often see difficulty with writing, complex problem solving and creating as much "output" as peers.

This does not mean the thinking ability is impaired. But it takes much longer to learn and show what the skills and knowledge that the student has learned. Since school has a finite amount of time and the pacing is often driven by the "average" student, this can leave a child with slower processing behind if he or she does not have supports.

The evaluator summed it up nicely, >

There are many brilliant people with this profile. Einstien iEinsteinhe is thought to have very poor working memory and slow processing speed. Some think that this allowed him to see things other missed.

But, in the American School, lower ability in these areas can be problematic.

You offer if there is a typical profile of a student with lower WMI and PSI. Yes. Most kids with learning disablitiedisabilitiesort are lower in at least one of these areas. My son's PSI is more than 50 points lower than his VCI. Even though his WMI is adequate at 109, the slow processing makes school difficult. It takes him longer to read, write, forumulateformulatel responses. Yet, he is gifted in the verbal realm. He needs extra time, scaffolding so that he learn and integrate new information more rapidly. Using a computer has helped him be more efficient with his writing.

Low scores in these areas are also hallmarks of ADHD. It doesn't prove ADHD, but it is a red flag. What comes first - the ADHD or the lower psi and wmi? Who knows. It's the chicken or the egg. But, they are very often related.

I'd like to see the achievement scores.

The responses she gave you seem on the money to me. The WISC is one piece of data that can give you insight into your child's learning profile. I would bet that when time is a factor or when there is very complex information or tasks, your child struggles more than a typical child. It would be helpful to see achievement scores under varying conditions to see if this plays out. How is reading long complex pages with a time constraint compared to short word list with no time constraint. What about math. Writing a parapraph paragraphtquicklyontext vs a sentence to answer a concrete question.


As far as tracking - this would be seperate fseparateng accuity. acuityg is more like an OT skill - kids can have great eye site and still have visual tracking and visual processing difficulties. Generally an OpthamologOphthalmologist test this function.

I am wondering what you were hoping to find from the testing? Are you suprised wsurprisedresults? Why or why not? Were other areas tested such as speech and language, visual motor integration etc?

While the WISC is an important piece of data, I think it is important to consider it in light of what you see at home and school as well as the other tests.

Truthfully, I'm still confused over who did the testing this year and last. Was one done privately, the other by a school psych? What were the credentials of each tester? Could you please post his WIAT-II results and those from any other tests he's had, along with their dates?

Exactly!

I agree you cannot treat the IQ scores as a baseline or starting point. The report does not tell us why his scores are what they are. Instead it takes his scores and places him at that level of ability.

Example of her conclusion and recommendations -

‘The remainder of his scores were weaker with non verbal reasoning falling within the low average range of ability. The child’s processing speed and working memory skills were limited and are likely to pose difficulty for him in class. A pupil scoring poorly on these scales may experience difficulty reading longer narratives. He may find it hard to copy from the board. He may experience more difficulty than average in remaining focused particularly on timed activities. He will work at a slower pace than his peers.’

We got the Wechsler Individual Achievement Test-II done and there are ‘significant delays in all academic attainments’. The report again does not tell us why. It implies poor performance is a function of the scores, which it is, but then there is more to the scores than what meets the eye.

Now it is possible his WMI is low because of ADHD or CAPD. So gearing up class instructions to address low WMI is not going to change things very much. It will end up in a situation where his scores continue to be low and ultimately he will be classified as having no potential. That is my greatest fear.

Do you agree?

I'm not a professional psychologist, but I don't disagree with most of what your evaluator told you. It's similar to what we've been trying to tell you.... yes, digit span is an auditory task, and your son had trouble with it. The question is why? It doesn't necessarily means the person has poor hearing, although that's one possibility. There's a condition called CAPD, Central Auditory Processing Disorder, which is another possibility. But truthfully, a person who is distractable and unfocused, classic ADHD, is likely have difficulty with that task, too.
I also don't think it's necessary to be able to internalize numbers to be able to remember them. They're words, too. If the task was "name span" instead of "digit span" and your son was told "Bob, Ann, Joe" he could have had the same trouble, if he wasn't focused, as if he was asked to memorize "four, six, three" and can't visualize "4,6,3"
As your evaluator said, "Distractibility impacts scores and that is a part of the problem."

The only thing I really disagree with is treating the IQ scores as a baseline or starting point. If you were talking about achievement scores, yes; however, you didn't have any achievement testing done. IQ is supposed to be a measure of cognitive ability and potential.

Healthy11, michellea

My mother is better, thanks.

I am still asking questions and I hope you do not think of me as a bother. I really appreciate your insights and I really have no other sounding board.

No mention of dyslexia at all in the report. I have noticed he sometimes gets his words backward (saw/was). One line in the report briefly mentions he might have a tracking problem. We got a very through eye test done last year and vision came out perfect. I will have to probe that deeper.

I emailed the ed psychologist some questions as a precursor to a follow up discussion to the report. Her answers were:

Distractibility impacts scores and that is a part of the problem.

There is no typical profile of a person with a low WMI or PSI.

WISC IV does not have a significant motor component.

Doing badly on digit span or letter number sequencing is indicative of a struggle with auditory information.

She said it was not necessary to internalise a number to be able to remember it. I disagree. If I am given 4,8,7. I remember it as 4, double that, and minus one.

She says scores are best treated as a baseline, a starting point.

What do you think of her answers?

Now if the scores are impacted by other factors then they are not intrinsic. If they are not intrinsic, what is their value and how can we treat them as a baseline?

VeryConfused, I hope your mother's health issues have been solved; what confused michellea and I was when you said, "has a fear of numbers. He has never alphabetized the letters either." Without our seeing any achievement test results from your son's evaluation (like a WIAT-II or WJ-ach) we were only guessing that he might be dyslexic.

You ask about a typical profile of someone with low WMI and PSI? It's having ADHD, and that usually means having poor written output, too. Being fine in a 1:1 situation further "confirms" his ability to do the work, so if you ask me, it points even more conclusively to an attentional/focusing problem. ADHD can also explain his test variation from one year to the next...as has been said, "The only thing consistent about ADHD is inconsistency" since no two days are the same.

Michellea - The difference in scores of the two tests done, this year and the last is what puzzles me.

Healthy11, There is no problem in reading at all. DS has missed 54 days of school when I had to rush to care for my mother who very nearly died. He is therefore behind grade level expectations, but I do not see a problem there, he will catch up.

His problems are mostly with his written output which is abysmal and which puts him at the bottom of the class.

1:1 he is absolutely fine, even when it comes to Math and when I say I will write and he can dictate, the thoughts are fine - coherent, humorous, relevant facts.

What is the typical profile of a borderline WMI and PSI case?

I will ask for more detailed explanations, thank you for clarifying so many issues, they will help when I talk to the edu psycho.

Thanks and look forward to your replies.

I agree with everything that Healthy has said.

As far as difficulty with numbers impacting the WMI - my son (extremely dyslexic) has trouble with naming letters and numbers even at age 12. This is indicitive of dyslexia. Yet, his WMI while much lower than his Verbal and perceptual scores is solid at 109. Yet, on other tests that measure rapid naming of numbers, he is usually in the 10th percentile or lower. Yet, his overall IQ is very strong.

You ask about the variability between his scores. This is often a sign of a learning disability. My son's Index scores vary by over 50 points. Even within ind-ices, he has wide variability. This "scatter" is what makes the child complex with very strong areas and very weak areas. Yet, as Healthy says, their overall IQ can be solid.

Yet, one test cannot diagnose a LD. Much more info is needed. And, for a complex student, this may be testing in a range of areas. Generally, schools are not able or interested in doing this kind of diagnostic evaluation.

This is a must read about understanding test and measurements: www.wrightslaw.com/advoc/articles/tests_measurements.html

Beyond this, I urge you to ask more questions of the evaluator and engage an independent evaluator if you are not satisfied with the school's explanation of your child's profile and related educational needs.

I never heard of the MISIC before. It sounds as if it's more like the older WISC-III, not the WISC-IV, based on the subtest names. One thing they say is that testing of younger children is considered less reliable and more variable than that of older children. Truthfully, I still consider testing of most 7-yr-olds to be variable, although my own son was tested at ages 4 1/2, 6 1/2, and 13 1/2, and his scores were amazingly similar. His working memory is always his worst area, with written tasks to be problematic as well (like coding.)
Your son seems like a child of good potential, and at least average intelligence, who probably has attentional issues. As michellea suggested earlier, you would be wise to consult a professional like a neuropsychologist to delve into the issues. If you sense reading difficulties, like an inability for your son to recognize the alphabet, there are tests like the CTOPP and TOWRE and others that can help identify his strengths and weaknesses.... The WISC and NEPSY aren't enough.

Healthy11, My son knew the telephone number (8 digits) since he was in pre-school. I don’t think he had much trouble learning it. He remembers instructions, is not forgetful either.

We got a adaptation of the WISC done last June, his scores were much better.

I don’t understand the variation. But I see a pattern – his strengths remain the same over the two tests.

The scores of the WISC adaptation the MISIC is given below. What we were given is the test quotient and told he is of average IQ on a scale 90-110.

Verbal IQ 108
Performance IQ 104
Full scale IQ 106

Test quotients
Verbal scale
General info 108
General comprehension 119
Arithmetic 95
Similarities 125
Vocabulary 106
Digit span 93
Verbal IQ 108

Performance scale
Picture completion 127
Object assemble 127
Block design 89
Mazes 107
Coding 71
Performance IQ 104
Full scale IQ 106

What do you make of the variation in test scores?

VeryConfused, people with borderline working memory scores can have normal, and even gifted IQ's. In terms of the digit span test, it's auditory, and numbers are random. Kids just have to repeat them. My understanding is they start off hearing 3 numbers, then a different series of 4, then 5.....There's another section of the test where they're supposed to listen and recite the numbers in reverse order. Even if your son had a traumatizing teacher last year, did he know his own address or phone number when he entered kindergarten? I'm not a psychologist, but since your son got average VCI scores, he seems like should be able to have repeated the "words" for the number series just fine, ie., four-six-two, even if he can't visualize the numbers 4-6-2. On the other hand, as they said to me, being able to "pay attention" to the boring task of listening to the number series is another story....My son did worse in digit span that most every other WISC subtest, yet he's scored 99.9% on the math achievement tests. It points to an attentional problem.

michellea, healthy11,

Many Thanks for your replies.

When it comes to digit span, key to determining WMI, those that do well are able to recognize the numbers and group them into a pattern. If somebody has not internalised the numbers what is the impact likely to be?

Our son was traumatised (long story!) by his teacher last year and has a fear of numbers. He has never alphabetized the letters either. He is unlikely to be able see patterns in numbers or letters and numbers that are key to being able to remember them.

Given the importance of working memory can somebody with a borderline WMI be strong on logic or reasoning, ask intelligent questions or relate facts and events to something else? Can they appear completely normal?

Can somebody with a borderline WMI have an average overall IQ?

Thanks.

Very confused, my son is a Visual-spatial learner with a lousy working memory and great long-term memory, too. My son is a teen, and his writing is barely legible. He has been diagnosed as having ADHD, dyslexia, and dysgraphia. I am NOT saying your son has the same profile, only that it's certainly possible for kids to have poor WMI and good long-term memory, and one doesn't have to have poor motor skills in order to have difficulty writing. Problems with writing are quite common in children with ADHD. (Low working memory and processing speed scores are also common.)
One thing to know is that ADHD is a medical condition, and school psychologists are not able to diagnose medical conditions. I would encourage you to get a referral from your son's pediatrician, to a child psychologist or child psychiatrist... sites like www.chadd.org and www.help4adhd.org can give you more information. Another good forum for discussing ADHD and other learning issues is www.millermom.proboards107.com

You ask some very good follow up questions - I would ask these same questions of the evaluator. He or she can give you some qualitative insight as well - "how" your son approached the tests.

For instance, my son also has poor fine motor skills. When he took the WISC at age 7 he scored very well on block design. He took the same test at age 9 and his block design score went down. The evaluator observed that he was very slow and inefficient in his approach to completing the tasks; he missed the bonus points due to time constraints - although he was able to replicate the more difficult designs - just not fast.

Was this an issue with the visual spatial aspect of block design or issues with his motor skills, planning etc?

Your child's scores are quite scattered - indicating a more complex profile. My son is also a bit complex, and we found more answers and understanding once we had him evaluated by a private neuropychologist. Often times there approach is more diagnostic and complete. Schools evaluate primarily to determine special ed eligibility. Independent evaluators are often more helpful in defining some of nuances of your child's learning style and providing more complete and aggressive recommendations.

Given your very good questions - you might seek professional guidance from a neuropscychologist. I would also suggest getting an OT evaluation - these issues are usually related!

The replies are much appreciated.

This is about our 7 year old son who has finished first grade and will go into second. He is a happy, sociable, sensitive and thoughtful child.

His motor skills, especially fine motor, are very poor. This impacts his class work since he finds writing etc very cumbersome.

He has an inability to stay on tasks. The child symptom inventory form filled by the teacher meets the criteria of ADD whereas what we filled out does not.

It’s also true that his poor fine motor skills frustrate him and he cannot/does not want to complete or attempt tasks.

I read thru the ‘The Visual-Spatial Learner in School’ by Betty Maxwell. It fits my son exactly.

He has remarkable memory, remembers events, facts and details from 2-3 years ago.

His reactions are immediate and will ask questions or relate the info to something else. Told just once, he can grasp and retain facts.

His teachers comment on the report card is that he often asks relevant questions in class that requires the teacher to think before answering.

His teachers have told me how quick he is to answers questions.

We got a WISC 4 done last week when his teachers felt we should look more into his distractibility and find out why his output is behind peers. The edu psychologist did a few tests from the NEPSY as well.

The WISC IV results are as follows
VCI 100
PRI 84
WMI 71
PSI 75

The large discrepancy between scores rendered overall score unreliable and it was not give. The edu psychologist however concluded he was of ‘broad average cognitive ability’.

Breaking down his WISC IV scores –

VC1 100
Subtests -
Similarities 12 (Above average)
Vocabulary 10
Comprehension 10

These are tests I presume that involve no motor skills and where the questions are straight forward thereby not placing a visual child at a disadvantage. He comes out ok here.

PRI 84
Subtests
Block Design 8 (low average)
Picture Concepts 9 (average)
Matrix Reasoning 5 (below average)

Looking at these scores, he has done poorly on Block design. Impacted by motor skills and the verbal commands?

What is the difference between Picture Concepts and Matrix reasoning? What could have impacted his Matrix reasoning?

WMI 71
Digit Span 4
Letter Number Sequencing 6

How much would these scores be related to his academics and that he is more visual than auditory?
He is not strong on numbers and has never done things like reciting the alphabets or numbers in the reverse.

Can someone with a low WMI have an excellent long term memory?

PSI 75
Coding 4
Symbol search 7
I assume this is this impacted by poor motor skills and auditory information.

The NEPSY scores reveal he is more visual than auditory.

How do I interpret this report in view of his motor skills and his visual nature?

What I am referring to is a draft copy the ed psycho sent us. I need to get back to her. She said she will send me a final copy if I am ok with this? What does she mean?

Am I wrong when I think that the tests do not accurately reflect his innate abilities?

Please, please, I greatly appreciate your inputs.

Thanks

I don't think absences from school would have any impact on the tests. I'm not as familiar with the NEPSY, but I'm going to respond differently on the WISC-IV question. If a child has poor motor skills, then they may struggle with tasks that involve manipulating objects (like block design, which has a time bonus for kids over age 8 if they can replicate block patterns quickly), and the Processing Speed subtests of Coding and Symbol Search involve "pencil to paper" activities, so if a child struggles with fine motor issues, like holding the writing implement, they might score lower.

The VCI's subtests are as follows:
· Vocabulary - straightforward questions over the meaning of words
· Similarities - asking how two concepts are alike
· Comprehension - questions about social situations or common concepts
· Information (supplemental) - general knowledge questions
· Word Reasoning (supplemental) - children are presented with one to three riddle-style clues and asked to determine what the tester is describing.
The PRI's subtests are as follows:
· Block Design - children put together red-and-white blocks in a pattern according to a displayed model. This is timed, and some of the more difficult puzzles award bonuses for speed.
· Picture Concepts - children are shown rows of pictures, and are asked to find a common bond with one picture in each row.
· Matrix Reasoning - children are shown an array of pictures with one missing square, and select the picture that fits the array from five options.
· Picture Completion (supplemental) - children are shown artwork of common objects with a missing part, and asked to identify the missing part by pointing and/or naming.
The WMI's subtests are as follows:
· Digit Span - children are orally given sequences of numbers and asked to repeat them, either as heard or in reverse order.
· Letter-Number Sequencing - children are orally given sequences of letters and numbers together, and asked to repeat them in both numerical order and alphabetical order.
· Arithmetic (supplemental) - orally administered arithmetic questions. Timed.
The PSI's subtests are as follows:
· Coding - children under 8 mark rows of shapes with different lines according to a code, children over 8 transcribe a digit-symbol code. Time-limited with bonuses for speed.
· Symbol Search - children are given rows of symbols and target symbols, and asked to mark whether or not the target symbols appear in each row.
Cancellation (supplemental) - students are to mark lines through objects that do not belong in a page of randomly-arranged objects and one of orthogonally-arranged objects.

There is only one subtest on the WISC that requires visual motor skills (cancellation, I think) and it falls in the processing speed index. Motor skills would have little overall impact. However, if a child was more visual spatial and had language difficulties, the overall score could be negatively impacted. All directions are given verbally - if the chid did not understand, the score would be reduced.