Great Letter! Thanks for sharing it with us. I will use parts of it to form my own letter to our principle. I requested a teacher for my daughter in person with our principle. I thought she was going to chew my head off. Out of flustration I said, "Can't you just make me happy? It's been a bad year for my daughter regarding her teacher. I just want her to have a great 2nd grade with a teacher who I can work with to help Missy. This principle looked at me and said it's not engraved in stone. I will make that choice and I didn't like you choice of words. I looked at her and said I didn't think I would have to beg to get my child a good teacher after the year she just had. Sad but the people in charge of making that decision doesn't even know my child yet she acts like she is so qualified to make that decision.
Maybe if I choose my words more carefully, it will work in my favor. Thanks for sharing your letter.
Dawm

I would definitely talk with your child's teacher. Perhaps an offer to do more of the work at home could free up some recess (break!) time for your little guy. Also, I would to your child's teacher AND the spec ed teacher - if he needs a little extra help, you can get the ball rolling. Finally, you may want to consider talking to the guidance counselor - making sure that social issues aren't subconsciously motivating your child to have late work.

We worked out strategy with teacher to have our daughter demonstrate proficiency without having to complete all problems. For example if there was a math assignment with 30 problems. If 10 were on patterns, 10 on addition, and 10 on subtraction....she would complete 3 or 4 of each section to demonstrate that she knew how to do the assignment and still got time to play.

I'd be calling a meeting with the teacher and principal TODAY about this. If it was such an issue, you should have been notified a long time ago. Your son never mentioned staying in for recess? This is also really close to teacher sanctioned bullying, if his teacher is calling him slowpoke, she's telling the other kids it's ok as well. This needs to stop ASAP.

I would ask that the work be sent home each evening so you can go over it with your son and get a better understanding of why he's not finishing. It could be he doesn't understand, he has poor pencil grip, he's a perfectionist, he's easily distracted. You need a better understanding of why it's happening, and just calling him "slowpoke' isn't an explaination. That the teacher hasn't informed you is inexcusable.

Kathi

This also happened to my child in the third grade after she had officially been diagnosed with ADHD in the first grade. I also learned what was happening late in the year. I knew something was wrong but couldn't put my finger on it. My daughter would get off the school bus, throw her bookbag at my feet in a fit and march off into the house. Other mothers looked on at the bus stop and didn't let their children play with mine. The doctor told me it was related to the rebound of the ritalin leaving her system.
For the longest time the teacher rejected my offers to volunteer in the class stating she had plenty of volunteers. Finally it was April and I was allowed to come in with pizza and cupcakes for my daughter's birthday. What I observed horrified me. On her birthday I entered the classroom to see that the teacher had changed the seating arrangements since the conference time. All the seats were in groupings except for four desks that were up at the front of the classroom, to the side of the teacher's desk facing away from the other children. My daughter was assigned to one of the four desks. I said nothing at that moment. We finished the celebration and mine and another child were told to take out their seat work an finish it. They were told they could come outside to recess as soon as it was done. The teacher told me that my daughter "often" doesn't "like" to finish her seat work, even though she knew the consequences. A boy stepped out of line and yelled "retard" at the boy left behind. The teacher just asked him to step back in line. My daughter began to cry. I looked at her work which involved writing and copying. She had dysgraphia and also loses her place when copying things down. I saw the other boy struggling too. I quickly helped them finish their work and escorted them out to recess. I observed my daughter during recess and who ever she went to refused to play with her. What I witnessed after that broke my heart. She pulled out some money from her pant pocket and offered a little girl 2 quarters if she would play with her. The girl agreed. I don't think the teacher ever fully comprehended what her role in the whole situation was. By isolating the "problem children" at the front of the class away from the other children the teacher had succeeded in stigmatizing them and the other children treated them accordingly. No wonder my daughter was depressed and acting out. Children that young can't always verbalize their emotions. I went straight to the 504 coordinator and let her know my opinion about the set up of the classroom with "problem child" desks and the effects of missing recess because of a child's disability, especially an ADHD who has difficulty sitting still. I was so disgusted, I expected a grade school teacher to know a little child psychology but that wasn't the case. I also asked them to involve the school psychologist to see if the other four "problem children" had been psychologically effected. The situation was remedied by the next day. The seating arrangement was changed to include the four "problem children" into the same seating arrangement as the others. Her 504 plan was tweeked to allow unfinished work to be sent home and work that could not be finished that night for homework would be finished as soon as possible at my daughter's own pace. Let me tell you, a different child started getting off that school bus. Teachers may be credentialed in their field of study, but they are clueless about how to handle children with learning disabilities. You need to keep a watchful eye on your child's behavior. Perhaps the teacher thought she was teaching my child a valuable lesson, but she ended up doing psychological damage to my child. We couldn't imagine removing a child's glasses and expecting him to finish his work quickly. If a child needs glasses or an accommodation to complete his work, then the law is supposed to protect them. Unfortunately you can't see what's going on in the classroom on a regular basis. Watch your child for uncharacteristic changes in behavior. Most teachers see kids as "slow", "not too bright" or "lazy" and if they are very young,..."immature. I have rarely come across a teacher who thinks "hmm, I see a pattern here, perhaps there is a learning disability the child should be tested for."

Is your child a special education student with an IEP? If he has an IEP this is a very simple matter to deal with. If he is a regular education student then I would have a different recommendation for you. Therefore please let me know if I can help you by answering the above. I have been a school principal director of special education and I am a certified reading specialist with training in the teaching of multisensory reading programs such as the Wilson program. Therefore not to be egotistical but recommendation is based on my experience. Again if I can help you feel free to send me e-mail at idea2004@comcast.net

I'm starting to feel I'm in good company, because we've had all those experiences, too. It is heartbreaking to find out about these things at the end of the year, when they could have been resolved earlier, before our kids had to go through that. I don't think teachers always realize the impact these experiences have on kids, especially when they are struggling with a Learning Disability. And it is beyond comprehension when a teacher tolerates kids being called "retard" or even "slowpoke".

You certainly had the right to know from the teacher what was going on with your child! Yikes, partnering works two ways when it comes to supporting a child's education.
I honestly feel that recess time is AS critical for a childs development as classwork...We had this same issue with our dd in first grade. she was painfully slow(still is - probably always will be. :)) She felt like she was being punished. It did great damage to her self esteem in one short year. I took this "slow to complete work ", along with her low self esteem, as a sign that my dd may have had an LD. I requested that she be evaluated. Best thing I could have done. She has processing speed issues. Now she is going into 4th gr and has since had modifications in place for classwork and homework. A child can prove they are proficient in work w/o spending time to the excess to do so.
While this may be a maturation issue for your son something else may be going on. He doesn't sound like a discipline problem. If he could he would have corrected this from the very beginning. Shame on this teacher for her choices in retaining him, calling him names and not being fully honest with you.

I'd touch base with Levinelaw and see what he/she was to say... good luck.

Ok I went to school 4 times since then to observe what he is doing - all 4 times he got his work done without a problem at all and went to recess. So I am still confused. I will talk to his second grade teacher about this, but I'm not sure whether to ask for an evaluation - would that be the best at this point?

Hmmm? your observations could lead to several different thoughts.
1. was he motivated with you being present to get his work done in a timely manner?
2. was he(the class) given the same work load as normal?
3. was he working on an assignment that he was familiar and comfortable with?
I would be curious as to the other parents insights - the one who shared with you that he was kept in for recess. Did they feel that he was distracted on the days they were there? Was the class given new subject matter that may have been challenging or overwhelming? Was he working hard and remained focused on the task at hand yet still needed more time to get the assignment done? Did he seem to need more support to do the work/stick with the work?
another question is what is the quality of the work he "labors" over? correct answers? neat/ledgible? complete?
If his answers are incomplete,incorrect and/or unledgible then yes, I would request an eval. That's an awful lot of effort for low output.
His teacher should be able to address the proof and insight as to what challenges he has with the material, attention, output. Being a"slowpoke" is both subjective and unprofessional. She needs to be concrete. She may not have the skill set herself to know if he should be evaluated(since she obviously was unaware that keeping him in daily was inappropriate).

The one thing about requesting an eval - the clock does not begin until the school receives in writing your request to have him tested. That clock only runs during the actual school year. So you can do one of two things.
1. make your request now so that he is scheduled for evals early in the next school year. You can change your mind prior to having them administered to have them postponed or cancelled.
2. you could wait and see what happens in the fall. Different teacher, more maturity, new set of rules and expectations. The problem may go away or it may continue or increase. You can then request an eval but it will be that much later in the school year before you have any answers/solutions.
Another option you may want to consider is having him "tutored" over the summer and have them give you some input. should they feel he is struggling, submit a request before the school year. You lose no more time on the calendar, you have another input and you're ready with an active game plan to start the new year.

Regardless, you seem to have more questions than answers right now. He could blossom over the summer, have an amazing 2nd gr teacher, and 1st grade will only be a memory... OR this may bring you to recognize he is struggling and needs help. I'd be interested to hear what other posters would recommend...
Good luck.
stay in touch.

I guess this begs the questions:
Is the work to difficult?
Does he know what he is doing?
What is he doing instead of his work 90% of the time?

I suggest if he is heads down on task, the teacher with your input pick a reasonable time limit and have him stop at the end of that time. Time he is off task should cut into his recess. This will be hard for the teacher to track but it would make it more under his control and might work.

This summer I would stand over him and figure out how long a task really takes. Doing a work sheet. Don't help him, just watch how long it takes when he is at his best. This will give you a better idea of his ability to perform in an ideal situation. Then the challenge is to build the skills so he can perform reasonably well without someone stand over him. This will take a while and the teacher is your best partner.

If the work is too hard, then he may have a skills deficit and be avoiding work he does not understand.

He can't have someone hovering over him for the rest of his life. His performance when you visited school suggests he needs external motiation and possibly some scaffolding to move toward more independence and is not internally motivated yet. At home encourage him to "self talk" his way through the work. Then get him to do it at a whisper. Some little guys need to do that. The teacher may also want to change his seat during independent work. He is pretty little after all don't you think to have all these skills. Many of the girls are very good a sitting stills are often held as the gold standard and I recommend you discuss with the teacher that your son not be compared to such girls who tend to be a bit more mature in early elementary school.

Has he been evaluated for a disability that affects learning? If so does he have an IEP?

Possibly a visual perception problem, written expression problem, fine motor skills, reading, etc.?

you must report to the school district about the word that teacher uses (slowpoke)!!!!!! that is sooooooo against all schools' law! specially in the 1st grade.

THANKS ALL FOR THE INFO!
Now, since he did the work when I was at school all 4 times, I think he actually can do his work on time unless the teacher did anything different because I was there. AND, his assessment tests show his scores with 89% being the lowest score and the rest in the 90's. So I don't think that shows he is actually struggling with content. I wonder what was going on. I am just confused.
I plan on having a talk with his second grade teacher and letting her know that I would like to know from day one whether he struggles to complete his work and go from there. I may have to take off and go to school a few times as well and observe again. I also plan on letting her know that I would rather he didn't miss recess like last year and I would rather she sent the work home when he doesnt' finish. That will aslo give me a better idea of what he struggles with. I would imagine that in the first couple of months I will get some indication of whether he should be evaluated or not. I'm just glad he is out of that teachers class and I hope to get his self esteem back up. I have been reading with him every day and will keep that up through the summer just to help that along. Thanks so much for all the insight and advice it has really helped me!

Here is something I did as a teacher for a child who did a problem, played in his desk for a minute or so, did another problem, dropped his pencil on the floor so he could reach down and get it, did another problem, found another way to distract himself. It is an unfortunate fact that sometimes kids have to do work they don't find challenging, that bores them, that they really don't care to finish. Perhaps if we had smaller classes and more information about making learning activities motivating, this would not be a problem. But, since we don't have that , you can teach your child how to self-monitor.

Here's how. At home, with a worksheet of, say 12 problems, 4 on 3 rows., ask him if he knows how to do the work. You can even have him talk out the first probem with you--describing his thinking as he solves it. If it turns out that he does know how to do it, tell him you want to time him working the problems and it will help him to know this. Ask him to guess how long it will take him to do the first problem. Accept whatever he says and make a simple chart- Problem 2, estimated time--actual time. You may have to give him choices: a minute, two, three? Then, ready, set, go.
When he finishes, have him look back over it to see if he made any gross errors. You look at it for correctness. Correct? Wow! Then, compare his actual time with his predicted time. Make a big deal if he did it faster than he predicted. Make a big deal if he did it slower than predicted--it really doesn't matter. Using that information about the time, ask him to look at the chart and predict how long the next problem will take. Remind him of his time on the first one. He should say something close to the time he actually took on the first problem. If not, he doesn't understand what you are doing. Explain.
Ready, set, go. Finished-record his time. Tell him his time and compare it to his prediction. "You are getting good at predicting how long it will take. If it took you 12 seconds to do one problem, how many do you think it will take to do the next two? If he can't add 12 and 12, help him to come up with 24. Ask him if he thinks he will do it in 24 or does he think he could do it one second less, 23? Accept. Most kids like the challenge. Work up to doing three problems in a row without stopping. Tell him you have been playing a little game he could play in his mind at school. Although he won't be able to estimate because he can't keep track like you, ask him to look at the clock and figure out how long he has to finish the whole page of work at school. If he isn't telling time, teach him just about the mintes. Say, it is 10:00 at school and he knows the classs goes to Music or starts another subject at 10:20. He has 20 minutes to complete the page. He can challenge himself to have half the problems finished in 10 minutes at 10:10. Don't look at the clock until you have finished half the problems. Then, look at the clock. Ask him to see if he was successful. Most often he will be. Then, see if he wants to challenge himself by doing the last half even faster, finishing before 10:20. Do the problems and when finished, check the time. Yipee! Or, I need to not stop and play in my desk for an eraser, next time I will have an eraser ready.

There are many variations of this "game." It puts him in charge. It isn't important whether he breaks the paper into halves or fourths. Do what is easiest. Tell him you are going to keep a chart at home of his progress. He is to come home and tell you if he was successful in completing the work either before or in the time he predicted. Let him draw a smiley face. If not, leave it blank. praise his honesty and ask him if he knows why he didn't finish in the time alloted or he predicted. He is the one who has to come up with the answers as this all needs to make sense to him. Avoid giving him answers, probe and ask the questions that get him to come up with his own solutions.

I used this many, many times in my classroom with children who didn't keep working and, therefore, didn't finish. It always worked.

One other thing, the last couple of years that I taught I stopped having kids miss recess if they didn't finish their work, didn't turn their homework in, etc. I was not popular on my grade level as the others could see my kids were never out there. I told them that I noticed that the same kids were there every day so it wasn't working. I was trying something else. And, the above strategy was one I used.

Homework was another issue. Until I visited the home of a student who NEVER turned in homework-not even the part of it she had completed in class. If she took it home, it was gone forever.

Her parents had never come to requested conferences and I had read in her file that this was common for them. I told the child to tell her parents when I would be visiting.

I went over there and my eyes were opened as never before. This child and her siblings were surviving in that chaotic house, just surviving. I decided that school was a respite for them and stayed separate as did their time at home, which they didn't bring to school. Their energies were spent in dealing with things no child should ever have to deal with.

So, what did I do? I told the child that I could see why she didn't turn in her work so she should just plan to stay every day after school to finish it. Her brother and sisters were welcome to wait for her in my classroom. She balked,"Oh, please. I'll do it. I promise." Nope. So she stayed many afternoons, mostly 10 or 20 minutes. She kept begging me to let her take the work home. "I promise." After a couple of weeks, I said, "Okay, here's your chance." Next day, no homework. I didn't blame or say, "I was right. You can't do it at home." She just started staying again. I praised her work. I asked her didn't it feel nice to have it the next day. We did this for another month with her begging me many times. Nope. I tried several more times to let her try it at home but it NEVER worked. I couldn't even imagine where she would have a surface at home on which to lay the paper so she could work. Her parents offered no help. In fact, they were passive when I told them the problem. I had to have the child translate for me. They told me they would punish her. I said NO! Just find a place for 20 minutes that is quiet that she could work. But, I knew it wouldn't happen. There wasn't a quiet place in that small 2 bedroom apartment that wasn't filled with junk and where she could close the door and work. A few times toward the end of the year I asked her if she would like to self-monitor instead of me telling her when she could go? She could leave when she finished and had put her homework in a a folder left at school. I asked her if she didn't do it in my class, where could she do it at school. She came up with the cafeteria table. I asked her if her brother and sisters would distract her. She said, No. So, did she have the homework the next day? Yes. it worked. I asked her if she wanted to do it again. Yes. and yes it worked. I asked her if it wouldn't just be easier to do it in my classroom and get up when she was finished without having to show me. Yes. And, that is how we ended the school year. One time she didn't have the work because she left without finishing. I asked her how that worked. She agreed that staying to finish it was the only way, even if she didn't want to.

There are many, many variations. It is just thinking out of the box. As much as possible, put the problem in your child's lap to help come up with solutions. It is self-motivation you are seeking, not motivation of having mother stand over you.

My thoughts are with you.

Yikes, catch it now. Has he been tested for a learning disability? It sounds like he needs an IEP right away and maybe a new school if this kind of "teaching" comes from the top. We moved to get my son into a "good" school and this type of thing happened all the time. I tried everything to help them learn that recess should not be used as a punishment or reward. This time is needed to build social skills and the other kids know not to play with the kid that misses recess all the time- that is what the teacher wants. It is very damaging.

After three rough years of teachers thinking my son is lazy (he is gifted with learning disabilities and ADHD), we are going to try a school for kids that are alternative learners. It will add two hours to my day plus lots of gas but if the teachers have a clue - it will be worth it. Good luck to you - always trust your gut and advocate for your child. Insist on the testing and try to do it over the summer privately if you can afford it.

arlenec
Your post is long but worth the time. What many parents and teachers, unlike yourself, do not realize is that children must be taught how to concentrate and must build endurance for extended periods concentration. This is particularly true for work they don't want to do, find boring, or require them to be causal in the outcome. Few are born with the ability to concentrate for long periods of time. Many children I work with who are considered "hyper" have never been required to sit still...ever. Many parents see this as restrictive and harsh. Not surprisingly, the student lacks the experience and skill necessary to do it when it is required at school. This deficit kicks becomes obvious in late elementary school when teachers assume students can concentrate for longer periods of time.

While I would be open to the possibility this student may have an attention deficit or other disorder, I would not leap to that conclusion. After a parent or teacher works systematically to give him the skills required for this type of work for a few months and he still is incapable of concentrating I would then pursue that route.

First, provide him the opportunity and some strategies to do the work and don't jump to the conclusion he "can't" quite yet. Check lists, timed tasks etc. I am always surprised how few teachers and parents recognize a lack of concentration as a skills deficit. As adults we take this skill for granted and seldom see it as a discreet skill that can be learned and developed. I find music lessons are a great way to encourage longer and longer concentration. Be aware that the excercises described by arlenec might work best in the morning before the TV and electronics are turned on. I find electronics in general can make children grumpy for a while when they are required to focus at a slower pace. Good Luck!

It is common practice for teachers to "take-away" recess to get work done & often their will be one student that regularly falls victim to this consequence. As a teacher myself, I generally take recess away & then notify parents when that doesn't work, I often mention that the child is working slowly, but as a general rle try to resolve the problem in my room first. This might upset parents, but I personally believe that the problems in the classroom need to be solved in the classroom & when they can't be solved then consult with parents or admin about solutions. I don't think the teacher deliberately withheld information from you and I APPLAUD your willingness to go to the school & see what is happening first hand -- BRAVO!!! GOOD LUCK!

Have you asked him why he takes so long???

I didn't read all the replies, but I would REALLY recommend that your child be evaluated for a learning disability. Specifically make sure they include testing to include processing speed and dysgraphia. He may have slow processing speed (which cannot be easily remediated by the previous suggestions) and need more time to complete tasks. If he had an IEP, it could be written to include more time for tasks and not be kept in for recess. Slow processors NEED FREQUENT BREAKS. Holding him in for recess is the WORST thing they can do. Since this has been going on all year, I really question the judgement of that teacher!! Not only has it NOT been effective, it is tearing your son's self esteem to shreds!

AMEN Kewpie!!

I agree -- If you do something with a kid & its not making changes you want within a week its time to try something else.

Good luck, being at the school is a good way to see what is going on. But it will not change the teachers way of thinking. The older a child gets the more responsibility is placed on a child to do things on his/her own. Teachers feel that they should not have to hold the hands of add or adhd students. They should sink or swim. The more we try to help the more we will hurt them. Good Luck, Chris

>Teachers feel that they should not have to hold the hands of add or adhd students. They should sink or swim.<
Unfortunately, this is how some teachers think. This thinking is illegal as well as morally wrong, if the child has been diagnosed with a disability.
Would the same teacher not allow a paraplegic child to not have a wheel chair? Invisible disabilites are real.
Given the fact that 1 in 4 high schoolers are dropping out, there is a LOT of "sinking" going on and this is bad for society as a whole. We can either pay in terms of incarceration, welfare and social services or we can educate for self sufficiency.

The replies on this site which paint teachers with one paint brush, i.e., "teachers feel they should not hold the hands of add or adhd students," are really no different than teachers painting all parents as pushy or enabling. Neither characterization is accurate. How could it be? Nobody knows All teachers.

In fact, from both perspectives, and a third, as a principal, I can assure you that most teachers really do want to help their students be successful. However, if either the teacher or parent begins with pre-conceived notions about the parent or teacher, their communication is in jeopardy. It is always better, in my opinion, to assume the best. Assume that the teacher is doing her best, assume that she needs more information, assume that she wants to know from about your child from your perspective. Assume that the parent is frustrated and may appear angry when she is really just afraid, which is understandable. Assume that if she comes to the meeting with a chip on her shoulder, that she has had a bad day and she is really a kind, loving person. I know it takes work but this impacts your child so it is worth the effort.

It is inevitable, I guess, that as a parent of a child with disabilities of any kind, the mothering instinct perks up. We all want to protect our children while at the same time preparing them for the realities of the world. Assume the teacher wants that, too. If you go into a conference assuming that they will be narrow minded, won't listen, has their own agenda, I have found that people generally live up to our expectations.

All I am saying is that the teacher is an individual who became a teacher, likely because she liked teaching and she liked kids. There are always exceptions. Just as a teacher should assume like attributes of parents, we know there are exceptions to that characterization of parents, too. But, one bad experience doesn't make it a world-wide occurrence that all teachers follow.

Treat the teacher like you new next door neighbor, like your Sunday School friend, like the person you eat lunch with at lunch. Because that is what she is--you and me. If she is like most teachers in my experience, she makes mistakes, she wonders what the right thing to do is, she cares about kids and likes teaching and wishes she had more time to help all of her students. There is never enough time which I learned early in my 39 year career as a teacher and administrator.

It doesn't hurt to assume the best, else I would't keep doing it. Does assuming that all teachers have certain negative attributes gets you what you want. Or, does it result in an adversarial relationship?

The teacher should do the same and I believe that the greatest majority of them want to get along with parents and to successfully teach students.

If your experience has taught you otherwise and you attend all meetings with the faculty assuming that you will have to fight for your rights or the rights of your child, there will be no winners. I am not saying that everything is your fault. It is a two way street but you can park your car across the street and stop the action. You have more power than you ever dreamed by attacking the issues you have in a different way, if you are not getting good results.

For all the teachers of the world who may have had negative encounters with you about your child, I apologize. Perhaps you didn't have good school experiences of your own. I don't mean to make any assumptions, though. There are as many reasons for unsuccessful interactions as there are people.

I didn't have anything to do with your experience, of course. But, I just want you to know that there are a huge, huge group of kind, thoughtful, caring, loving teachers who want to help your child. And, like me, they are sad that your experiences have not been positive, just as I am.

Forgive the preacher-teacher lecture: old habits die hard. Once a teacher, always...

You can greatly influence your child's school experience, if only from your child's point of view. As a principal, I noticed that when a parent had a difficult time with the teacher, so did the student. It is inevitable that that attitude is transmitted to the child, even if the parent says nothing. The cost of this is nothing; the results can be better than you imagined. Good luck!

Arlene -- Well said!!! As a TEACHER & PARENT I appreciate your words of wisdom!!

>The replies on this site which paint teachers with one paint brush, i.e., "teachers feel they should not hold the hands of add or adhd students," are really no different than teachers painting all parents as pushy or enabling<
There was one reply, not lots of replies.
Arlene,
As a principal what words of advice do you have for this mom about this specific problem/topic?

RRBTmom: I hope you have spent a productive and profitable summer with your child. Spend a few minutes each day working as I have desribed in a previous posting.

As for the teacher and kids calling him a slowpoke, tell him you wouldn't like that either; however the school year is over and nothing would be gained from talking to the teacher or principal at this point UNLESS you want to take this on as a project, personally, I would let it pass. If you find out other things happened, though, talk to the principal. Tell her you know that she can't be everywhere at all times so you want to give her information. Be ready to back this up in a "hearing." Because it will become your word against hers. And, unfortunately it will create an atmosphere of fear. If in talking to the teacher, she denies having made the disparaging remark, tell her that you know that children don't always tell the truth but that,clearly, something is happening to erode his feelings of efficacy. Ask her opinion; seek her advice.

Volunteer in your child's classroom, first because all teachers need help, and second, because you will bring something new and different to this group of workers. Listen to your child--spend quality time with him. No matter how he is doing at school. Children are remarkably resilient. Be prepared to tell the teacher what happened that she probably didn't know about because, you tell her, you are confident that she doesn't tolerate bullying and it is verbal bullying. Don't bring up her participation in this; she'll understand what she has done without losing her dignity. Leave or hang up with a plan of action.

In the off chance that the teacher is uncooperative and unwilling to negotiate or she doesn't take responsibility--tell her that you had hoped to come to a good conclusion for her and your son but it just wasn't going to happen today. Tell her you are willing to meet with her again later when emotions are reduced. Take responsibility for your part such as you found yourself not really listening to her point of view. Model the things in yourself that you want her to exhibit. She may or may not. But, you have taken the high road. As a last resort, talk to the principal, just as an information item. It is your son's word against hers. Tell the principal that you just don't want another child to suffer as yours has and that her knowing about this she might be able to help the teacher.

When your child goes to the next grade, don't talk about the name calling. But, do talk to the teacher about the progress your son has made. Ask her how she thinks she can assist in continuing this progress.
Keep her informed about success at home and tell her that you will let your son report on his own progress.

Once again, I am explaining and writing too much. There are many good books you can read. Having a challenging cihld is not easy; but, you can either look back on his childhood with regrets or with promise. \

Maybe this "assumption" comes from the fact that every school year, there are many parents who have to do just that-fight for their and their childs rights. I, for one, are one of those parents. "There will be no winners" is so very true, and unfortunately, the biggest loser is the child, who loses out every year in an "appropriate" education in certain subjects because the district doesn't deem it nessecary for that child to actually learn-it is much easier and cost productive for the school to pass the hard-to-teach student on to the next grade, whether or not they truly learned much of anything(in the "troubled" academic).

'''Volunteer in your child's classroom, first because all teachers need help, and second, because you will bring something new and different to this group of workers.'''

When I asked to volunteer in my dd's class, the teacher said she did not want the kids mothers in the classroom and that I could volunteer to help in another class.
Later I found out that she didnt' want me in the class because the school did not want me to know the extent of my childs problems because they were trying to hide it from me.
Reason - they fought with me for years when I tried to get her help thru special ed and they did many things to hide her problems from me.

'''if either the teacher or parent begins with pre-conceived notions about the parent or teacher, their communication is in jeopardy.'''

I have been dealing with 6 different schools in 3 different districts with about 40 different people in getting help for my children and grandchild thru special ed, and I am a member of many groups, message boards, etc over the past 5 yrs.

ALL of the parents that I have been in contact with thru the groups and boards say that they DID have the best in mind of the teacher and school when they first approached to get their child help. It has ALWAYS been the school who started the opposition.


'''As for the teacher and kids calling him a slowpoke.....
personally, I would let it pass.....''

Sorry, but I would NOT just sit back and take this. What about next year? What would you do if it happens then??

AMEN CINDERBELL!!!

It sounds like both of you have had bad experiences, but I don't think it's all the "school", especially when you've been to 3 different districts & 6 schools & spoke to 40 people. I'm not convinced that EVERYONE you've talked too has been "hiding things". Maybe you've encountered so much difficulty, because of the approach -- it takes 2 people to make a relationship & 2 people to ruin it. Will you take the higher road or treat the road like a WAR ZONE???

Staying in at recess is a common practice across the schools sometimes it works & sometimes it doesn't.

Your child should not be getting called a slowpoke by anyone, if you feel that the teacher said it or let the kids say it -- let the teacher now what your child told you -- but let it go -- this has greater chance of harming your child by you holding onto your anger and your child having to relive it all the time -- then the original words.

If I would have believed the schools and just did what they said, believed the professionals, they wanted the best for my child , yada yada yada,,
and backed down and not follow the laws mandated by IDEA for the sake of having a 'good relationship' with the school,
Here's what would have happened --

1. My child would have never had an eval done to see if she qualified for special ed because as the sped director said - my child doesn't qualify for this eval because she isn't covered by IDEA.

Now, this makes sense when you don't see the underlying issue with this. In other words, he is saying a child has to ALREADY be in special ed in order to see if they can QUALIFY to be in special ed.

Instead of backing down and believing him, and the others, like I had for 2 1/2 yrs previously (and 5 yrs earlier with my older dd) and just dropped the whole thing and said 'ok you are right, there's nothing you can do' --

I became the BAD parent and learned about the laws and followed them and used them, so she could get the help that they were suppose to give her.

2. My blind grandson would have continued to live at the blind school during the week, over 50 miles away from his home, continued to suffer separation anxiety and depression, all because the blind school said he HAD to live there because they did not provide transportation outside of their district.

The only way this was stopped after he lived there for 2 months was for me and my daughter to be the BAD parents and learn the laws and the rights and follow and use them.

We found out that no child was suppose to live there unless they lived 60 miles away from that school.
(they only wanted him to live there so they could get more money)

3. My youngest daughter would have continued to recieve so called after school tutoring for the sake of raising the state test scores, and not progressing. But, instead I learned to be the BAD PARENT and found out from the horses mouth that this tutoring program that my child was in for 2 1/2 yrs was NOT to help with her problems, but to raise test scores so the school could get more money.

4. She would have continued to be in the schools SST intervention program after 2 1/2 yrs of no progress, no interventions, no meetings, nothing. Instead, I learned to be the BAD parent and found out that my dd was suppose to have an eval done to determine sped eligibilty after not progressing for 6 WEEKS in this SST program.

All this and a LOT more went on as long as it did *BECAUSE I WAS THE GOOD PARENT*, because I *DID* want a good relationship with the school and believed them and everything was nicey nice.

The ONLY reason it turned adversial was when I learned the truth about their corruption and lies, deciept, law violations, cheating, intimidation, and on and on.

When I learned about all this, I learned the IDEA laws and followed them because I was suppose to. I called them on their wrong doing and they didnt' like it.

Funny how THEY can do all this crap and it's ok, but when the parent learns the truth and really tries to help their child, then THEY are the BAD PARENT.

I wear my badge PROUDLY..

"it takes 2 people to make a relationship & 2 people to ruin it".....this is not always true. Sometimes relationships are ruined by one side stabbing the other side in the back, giving the other side the run-around year after year, one side pretending to have a students needs being focused on-but not really.....I could go on and on.

Most parents do not intend to go into meetings and have it end in war and battles, but that is the unfortunate end result when school districts will not admit that what they are doing isn't working or enough.....when a students needs are not being met and the school refuses to do nothing about it, what is left for a parent to do but fight? I know districts want parents to go quietly away and some do....but for the other parents, really, what is another option? I have tried to figure this out, but haven't come up with anything except go away....but to me, that is no option.

Very true Cinderbell. It is an unpleasant task to have to have to go into an school and point out that the childs education up to that point has been a failure. No matter how you sugar coat it, unfortunately the staff usually becomes defensive and the lines of communication get shut down in the name of self/job preservation rather than assisting the child in getting what he or she really needs.

If standing up for your kids rights or the rights of other people's kids somehow makes you BAD then I'm in the wrong profession. I think we all have had bad experiences with schools in some way or another and I think when we let emotions take over -- we carry the baggage from those negative experiences into every interaction we have with everyone we encounter with the school. Noone said you have to be walked on in order to take the high road -- but you don't have to be a jerk about it either -- that's all I'm saying. Research says that perception & body language is 90% of communication. It's never what you say that builds up barriers in communication it's perception & body language that paints the bigger picture.

''If standing up for your kids rights or the rights of other people's kids somehow makes you BAD then I'm in the wrong profession.''

There you go. Others here say I am BAD for doing this very thing.

"you don't have to be walked on in order to take the high road"....hmm, from my experience and many others with the same, there is no high road to walk, only a road in which we want our children the chance to learn and succeed at the end. Unfortunately, not all districts want to take this walk along this road, instead, they put up bloackades up so this doesn't happen. So many parents do so much research, come up with programs and ideas in which the school could help inmplementing-but don't because that certain program costs too much and they don't want to have to train a teacher to use it effectively.

Yes, parents are labled bad, pushy, loud-mouthed, wants whatever they want BS....a lot of districts ignores, creates battle zones, and simply have a could care less attitude towards parents who try to demand anything more appropriate for their children. You would think all schools would really listen and try new options when the old ones isn't working, sadly, that seldom happens.

So, who is at fault when battle zones are created? It is hard to say it is usually the parents fault, when you go from elementary schools, to middle schools, to high school and have the same reaction of "Oh no, this parent really expects us to TEACH her child? What IS she thinking?" mentality.

'''' It is hard to say it is usually the parents fault, when you go from elementary schools, to middle schools, to high school and have the same reaction of "Oh no, this parent really expects us to TEACH her child? What IS she thinking?" mentality. '''

From what people here have been telling me, It is MY fault that I have had the same reactions, retailiation, lies, violation of laws, lies, cheating, from 40 + people in schools.

jd,

I hear you. People who don't really know what goes on in these situations assume things like this. They think that schools WOULD NEVER DO SUCH THINGS as this....but they do, all the time.

And our children involved are the biggest losers in more ways than one, they need so much and receive so precious little.

Most schools and teachers are not as you describe, granted there are exceptions to that but they are few and far between. I'm inclined from the amount of anger in your posts to say that your approach with the school district is causing half the problem. I'm not even face to face with you and I feel defensive. I'm not your child's teacher and I feel aggravated. Are you on this site to seek answers -- even the ones you don't like or BMW about every little flaw in the US school system as you see it.

Kennysmom,
Actually, when it comes to special ed, most schools ARE this way. Look at the old Schwab website and you'll see person after person that had to struggle and still are struggling to get services.

Parents of LD kids a right to be a bit.... aggravated and to vent here. When I DEAL with my school district, I am sweet as can be knowing I can get more flies from honey than vinegar. It is through sites like the Schwab site (which SAVED me) and this site that teaches parents their rights. I must admit I was very angry when I found out what the school system put my daughter through. Here I can vent. Here I can get it out of my system so I can face the school district in a calmer manner, but knowing my rights.

The anger you see here is justified, but not always relayed to the school. Sometimes, yes, but not always.

So I guess we're in survival mode???????

There will always be 2 sides to every issue the parents & the schools and until each one takes a few moments to try and understand -- even be empathetic with the issues for each side only then will you come to understand the situation fully & begin to gain ground in finding a resolution. The problem is that parents go into schools with preconceived ideas about what a school should be doing with their kids and they won't compromise about it -- and that is normal since that child is afterall your kid, but you have to be REALISTIC in what you expect -- could YOU provide the help you expect for YOUR child to ALL 20 students in your classroom equally. Trust me -- you can't -- I teach & I have kids -- my child gets a better education at home 1 on 1 than some of my students because you can only stretch yourself as one person so far. In fact the kids that struggle get more of my time then kids doing well -- but I guess that's O.K. unless that kid is yours and he's gifted or catches on quickly and isn't challenged because the teacher has to focus on the struggling kids. The truth -- even "normal" & "advanced" kids don't get ALL their academic needs met -- they just happen to have brains that work well with the current mode of instruction. If the school system is that much of a disappointment and you expend hours or even days researching the laws & finding tutors & advocating for your kid -- why not pull them out of school & home school them a few hours each day??? I know what some of you will say -- I can't -- well I say why not -- the old adage is if you can't get it done right do it yourself. If you keep trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole you will struggle -- maybe the placement -- public school is not the least restrictive environment for your child -- not every kid is suited to public school some need the smaller class sizes or the one on one & some schools don't have the FUNDING to provide it even if it is the law. I know it won't work for every situation, but it will take a long time to change what is wrong with American schools. You won't be able to wave a magic wand and have every problem go away and their will never be one program that will fit all kids and get them up to grade level and doing exactly what the schools need them to do. Your kids will be grown up having kids of their own and those kids will be having kids before there is even a dent made in the problem. So help your kid, that is your part in the solution. I'm being realistic here -- one person may be able to make a difference, but it doesn't happen when your brain has you in the lymbic system & you are emotional or in your brain stem which has you fighting for survival. If you want to affect real change your mind has to stay in the frontal lobe -- where reason & sanity reside. Most parents go to school & confront a situation while their brain is operating in the lymbic system or the brain stem. The parent is convinced they are being reasonable & everyone around sees them as being emotional. This will only be perceived as irrational -- so if you are being treated that way its perceived that way. Let me clarify -- you have a right to be angry and frustrated and even disgusted, BUT if you take those emotions with you or begin to have them during the course of a conversation YOU WILL NOT GET ANYWHERE very quickly. Most of you have expressed that frustration and if you approach the schoolwith even half the emotion (brain in the lymbic system) I've witnessed on this strand I can understand the resistance you are getting. Stop telling yourself -- "they don't care", "I'm the only one to advocate for my kid" "the schools are horrible" "the teachers don't care" what is the good in telling yourself that over and over and over. The bottom line -- you truly believe it -- you'll believe what you look for if you look for negative and likewise if you look for positive. Before you decide to to rebuttal my post I WANT TO CHALLENGE YOU TO THINK OF 10 POSITIVES REGARDING A SCHOOL INTERACTION THAT YOU'VE HAD -- I'll go first. 1. she has a good relationship with students 2. she is very organized 3. a leader 4. is decisive 5. gets good test results 6. works hard 7. is dedicated 8. delegates authority 9. involved in the lives of her students 10. follows directives -- Now it's your turn. This is hard to do, but trust me it gets you thinking realistically about the problem & your part in it.

You have a right to vent on a public site such as this, but since their are 2 sides to every situation you shouldn't expect that everyone will agree with your position that posts here. If you want to vent and NOT have people give you some other ways of looking at it you won't find that here.

On another note how healthy is it to vent at someone who doesn't have a hand in it that's like kicking the dog because your brother hit you -- childish. I know you may not want to hear what I have to say because you feel like I'm defending the school -- but if you knew what I tell teachers & administrators & superintendents about how they treat parents you wouldn't be so confrontational with me -- I do defend people in your position as well, but in order to find solutions you have to be able to see both sides. Several of you posting aren't ready to do that. How I know -- is you keep alluding to the fact that "noone understands". Steven Covey says you have to seek to understand before you can be understood. I practice this often and I find that most people are receptive to you when you can show understanding & then speak about your concerns -- and yes that does go for special ed advocacy. It's also the old saying that you do get more flies with honey then with vinegar. Many parents though go in as a bear trying to steal the honey rather then trying to attract the flies.

''There will always be 2 sides to every issue the parents & the schools and until each one takes a few moments to try and understand''

And if you are not on either of these sides, you will not understand. The people I have come in contact with, whether it be internet, support groups, etc -- who defend schools, are the ones who have not had personal experience with getting their child help with special ed in public school.

I'm not saying there aren't any, but I have never come in contact with any.

'''The problem is that parents go into schools with preconceived ideas about what a school should be doing with their kids and they won't compromise about it '''

Who's painting the broad brush now?? I have NEVER done this. I only wanted the school to do an eval to determine if my child could qualify for special ed. They would not do this until I filed numerous state complaints.

I did NOT tell my school 'what to do with my kid' because I didn't even KNOW what her problems were!
*I* didn't even know what she needed! I trusted the school to know, but they would not do a thing.
They would not do an eval to determine what her problems were and what to do to help her.

I just wanted them to help her and they wouldn't. The teacher admitted this to me when I finally got fed up with them and started homeschool.

Teachers and schools don't want parents to say they are 'all the same', and it is the same with parents. We don't want the schools and teachers saying we are 'all the same'.

I know I am guilty of saying 'schools' this and that, and I'm sorry, I'm now re reading all my posts and make sure I add 'some' , etc.

''why not pull them out of school & home school them a few hours each day???''

Best thing I ever did! I feel so bad for the people who can't do this, especially with NCLB in public schools.

''Most parents go to school & confront a situation while their brain is operating in the lymbic system or the brain stem. This will only be perceived as irrational -- so if you are being treated that way its perceived that way. ''

OK, so tell me. What would YOU do if you have done all you know to do? Talk to teacher, write letters, have meetings, etc ... be nice, respectful, don't raise voice,,, and the school STILL treats you bad and call you a bad parent?

When you KNOW the school is doing wrong, when you are backed up against the wall because the school will NOT help your child when you know they are suppose to? I went almost to the top of the chain, short of due process hearings in court.

And I wasn't asking for much. Just for them to help her. Just for them to do testing to see what her problems were and how to help her. What's so outrageous about that?? I did not ask for any specific thing. I did not have any idea what my child needed at the time.

When it is YOUR child that the school is hurting, would you not do all you can?? Even if you ARE nice and respectful, SOME schools do not care. They are STILL defiant, rebellious, retailiate, violate laws, be intimidating and in my case hostile, and on and on.

I dont' think anyone should knock down a parents bad experiences unless you have been there and done that.

And I am NOT knocking a parents GOOD experiences, god bless them. I love to hear of this. But the bad experiences should not be knocked down. Parents with LD kids need to know everything there is to know about special ed and this IS a part of it.

Kennysmom, I would like to hear about your good experiences of school helping your child, if that's ok??
It would be a breath of fresh air!

''but since their are 2 sides to every situation you shouldn't expect that everyone will agree with your position that posts here.''

And you shouldn't expect everyone to agree with you.

''I do defend people in your position as well, but in order to find solutions you have to be able to see both sides.''

I wish someone could have helped me to see the schools side in their reasoning for the things they did wrong.

''How I know -- is you keep alluding to the fact that "noone understands". Steven Covey says you have to seek to understand before you can be understood.'''


Believe me, I TRIED to seek and understand what the school was doing in my situation. I never did figure it out. They would not let me know. I asked questions, they continually slam the door in my face. Would not reply to my letters or phone calls. When I requested a meeting to straighten everything out, and they agreed to this meeting and THEY set up the date and time,
only ONE person showed up for that meeting, and it was a person who had no knowledge of my situation.
After calls to get them to the meeting to no avail, we just left.

''I practice this often and I find that most people are receptive to you when you can show understanding & then speak about your concerns -- and yes that does go for special ed advocacy. ''


And I would be receptive if a school did this for me. They did NOT show understanding or speak about their concerns -- not unless it was lies and deceit.

''It's also the old saying that you do get more flies with honey then with vinegar. Many parents though go in as a bear trying to steal the honey rather then trying to attract the flies. ''

DITTO FOR SCHOOLS.

Actually, I have had to "fight" for a kid in my family -- my younger brother. I was 20 and he was 10. He went to pre K instead of kinder when he was 5, was involved in Title 1 pull out programs he struggled in math & reading and the school, year after year refused to test him. They kept giving my mom the run around. I came home from college over Christmas break and didn't have to be back at school til the end of January so my mom scheduled a conference with the teacher so I could be present -- I've always been the vocal one in our family and I sat listening as the teacher explained all the problems to my mom & expressed her concerns and then slowly with each question I asked I began taking over the conference. I explained CALMLY that my brother had a HISTORY of learning difficulty that was documented in school records, he had good attendance, that he did well at home with chores when things were consistent, but that he struggled with his school work and I asked why he hadn't been tested???? They said they were trying to give him time and explained that he might be a late bloomer. I told them that his history indicated a delelopmental delay he was a late potty trainer & was delayed in starting school despite the 2 years of private preschool that his grandparents had payed for because my mom couldn't afford it. He was already a year older then his grade & didn't 4 years of struggling tell them this. In March he was tested, in April we found out he had ADD and an IEP was written. He still struggled with school despite the "extra" help. The extra help doesn't always make it all better, it just improves the chances for success. So you can't really say I don't understand your position -- I remained calm and rationalized on THEIR level and got results -- something my mother was not able to do. As I've said before sometimes IT IS THE APPROACH that gets or prevents results. My mom had been trying to get him tested for 4 years over the course of several conversations and she had never thought to explain his history she later told me and she credits me for getting the help he needed -- it took me only ONE conversation with data and the right approach.

I became a teacher to help prevent as many kids as possible from falling through the cracks (I went back to school and changed my major from Family Psychology to Elementary Education after that) -- and when I post here I am advocating for your kid with you -- it may sound controversial, but thats because you are frustrated with the situation you are in and you feel like I don't get it -- I understand more then you'll ever know. It is my hope that you will pause & breathe long enough to think about what I'm saying and look at your situation & see if it will work for you. The key to my success was -- I never once told the teacher "I don't know what is wrong". I simply presented a list of my observations of my brother from birth to present regarding developmental milestones if there were delays & what I saw when I worked with him on school work. Because of NCLB schools are data driven -- teachers can't get kids tested if they don't have data supporting it and when parents make requests they need PAPER based data to present to school officials as supportive evidence. It can be as simple as journal entries & observations that are dated, collect work samples that your child brings home that show evidence of his difficulties ie don't make your kid fix the mistake -- Schools will not test just because there is a problem -- 90% of the kids struggle with something in their academics do they all need to be tested??? you have to show a history of related problems and that is where many parents struggle. That is why you have to fight so hard -- your child didn't get help because you fussed. Your child got help because the problem was noted and observations were documented that supported your claim. It just so happens that you believe that your fussing is the onlt thing that got results -- and maybe in some cases it did, but for most it didn't. Gathering that info can take years to establish. The schools aren't IGNORING you they are gathering evidence to see if they can help you. They may not want to say that outright -- I think because it somehow communicates that they don't have all the answers and school officials like to have all the answers -- we're expected to have all the answers -- but we're human and we don't always know what is wrong -- I can't speak for all schools, but I can for the ones of been associated with which is about 100 in 4 states. In any research study that's enough data to make some definitive statements about schools in the U.S.

Good stories

I've taught for 10 years and have had at least 25 kids in each class on average that's a total of about 250 kids that I've touched and taught. My first class graduated this year -- that's a success. That class had a child in it that was so emotionally disturbed that everytime I had a sub I had to leave a picture of myself on his desk so he wouldn't climb under the tables or lock himself in the supply closet because he was afraid -- he did that the first time I had a sub and I had no idea -- I had to leave the training early comeback to the school and get him to come out of the closet, his own mother couldn't even get him to come out. that year I had 2 LD kids that were below grade level in reading & I got them up to grade level. They graduated with honors!!!

''As I've said before sometimes IT IS THE APPROACH that gets or prevents results.''

So what would you have done if they did not do testing or do anything at all to help, even after you had done all you knew to do? Just give up and say ok??
This is what they wanted me to do.

Like I said, I was not adversial, no foot stomping, etc.
I wrote letters stating facts of what was going on, what the school refused, what they said, requested PWN on their refusal.

I even had district sped director call me and asked why I am asking for an eval, (this was before the meeting discussing it) and I told him. He kept repeating she's not covered by IDEA, they don't have to do it, he sees no need for it, etc.

I ended up filing state complaints - which was not an 'adversial tactic' on my part, filing complaints is part of the special ed process outlined in IDEA law, parents are to file complaints when a school violates the law. And this is what they did.

This is all I knew to do to get them to do right, do waht they were suppose to do, and in doing so I was considered 'bad' to them. I guess in their eyes they did no wrong. I mean, they knew they did, they just didn't care. It's funny that when schools do all these things they are not considered the 'bad school' -- only to the people they treat badly.


''My mom had een trying to get him tested for 4 years over the course of several conversations it took me only ONE conversation.''

Yea, it took me 2 1/2 yrs of doing different things, too. Before I even knew she could get help thru special ed, my dd was in their SST program and they told me this was all they could do. It ended up to be nothing. All they did was have a high school student read to her 2 times a week and said they would get a parent volunteer, but never did. Neither of these people are qualified and trained to help with LD's.

I asked to volunteer in her class, teacher said she wanted no parents in her class, I could go into other classes. Later I found out that the school didn't want me to know the extent of her problems so I woudln't ask for help.

''Unfortunately parents do have to fight for LD kids -- its sad but true,''

Thanks for knowing this. It seemed you didn't by all you have been writing? The whole jest of this is what is the answer, when a parent has done all they know to do and follow the laws and be nice, and the school STILL doesn't do right and views you as the bad parent even though you don't do anything wrong??


''I had to leave the training early comeback to the school and get him to come out of the closet, his own mother couldn't even get him to come out. ''

That is so sweet! Wow, he really looked up to you. That's great he had someone to hold onto.

''that year I had 2 LD kids that were below grade level in reading & I got them up to grade level.''

That's really good!! Thanks for letting us know the good stories!

When you file a complaint it can be perceived as being aadversarial and as I stated in my own personal account it took us 4 years of data collection to get results he was tested as a 3rd grader -- you accomplished yours in 2 1/2. Sometimes you have to accept that you have done everything you can do -- I don't know what I would have done if he hadn't been helped -- I can tell you, they expelled him for having 2 many absences as a HS student despite the IEP & medical documentation so he didn't finish HS. He has since gotten his GED. I know schools can be crazy, but there again my brother fell victim to a state law regarding any absence and he could be expelled and it wasn't illegal. If you can't get help, you keep looking for someone to help you -- but just make sure you are operating out of the frontal lode when you do or you'll be perceived as being irrational.

>Many parents though go in as a bear trying to steal the honey rather then trying to attract the flies. <

That seems to be the pervasive stereotype here when parents speak of their problems and anger. This is simply not true. Most parents expect the teacher to be the expert and will listen and follow what she says. I sure did. I see it happening all the time. The trust is innate like you feel for a Dr or clergy.
Unfortunately, the venting comes from the hurt and anger that stems from the feelings of betrayal in learning that the teacher was NOT an expert in diagnosing or even recognizing a learning disability when it is glaringly obvious. Even if an IEP is offered, years can pass at meetings while the team tells the parents what they want to hear: about what a sweet child they have and how s/he is doing fine and there is no need for concern. The child just needs more "time to develop".
Fast forward to 4th or 5th grade, the child can't read, write or do math. They can't read a book to do a report, homework is impossible to complete and they spend hours doing it.
This when parents get angry, hurt and bitter realizing that they have been strung along by the school staff they trusted.
My oldest son has a severe learning disability (he was already on an IEP for speech and OT,HELLO, big red flag) and his award winning gen ed teacher of 30 years insisted he did not have a reading problem. I asked her point blank at PT conferences. She insisted he didn't't and I took her at her word. Finally at the end of the year, the speech therapist, referred him for a academic evaluation. She indicated to me that she was disgusted with the teachers lack of skill in noticing such things. Unfortunately the next two years in resource didn't't improve his skills, even tho I was told he was doing well at school. Right before 4th grade, I got the state test scores and there it was in black and white, what I had suspected all along, (but I had really WANTED to believe the school staff) reading skills 1%. The school staff had effectively eliminated his chance master reading in a fluent way. Children who do not read fluently by the end of 3rd grade struggle for the rest of their lives.

>why not pull them out of school & home school them a few hours each day??? I know what some of you will say -- I can't -- well I say why not -- the old adage is if you can't get it done right do it yourself<

1) Some of us parents need to go to work and earn a living. Plus we have other children to take care of.

2) If a teacher who has a spent 4 years in college learning how to teach PLUS 2 MORE years to get a MS in SP ed, can't teach my child, how is the parent qualified to do this?

3) My DH and I already spent MANY frustrating HOURS helping out the poor child with homework already every night. It was especially "fun" when my youngest was an infant at the same time, plus I had a another younger child, attempting to cook dinner after a 9 hour work day, plus commuting and driving around to pick up kids.

I don't think expecting a child to learn how to read, write and do math is an unrealistic expectation.

I think 20 kids in a class is a very good ratio.
I went to a catholic school, the teachers were nuns, there was 50 kids in a class and EVERYONE learned to read. They REALLY knew their phonics!

Gee, I wonder why I didn't think of going into meetings in a calm fashion. Oh, that's right, I do. I wonder why I didn't explain the reasons and history of my daughter to those present at meetings. Oh, that's right, I do that every year-not that it matters any. I wonder too, why I haven't shown and brought up recent evals in which my daughter has regressed greatly in a certain academic, thinking the school-folk would understand my concerns. Oh, again, I did, I was wrong though, the school-folk acted like they didn't understand my concerns and blow me off year after year.

Why don't I home-school my daughter? One reason being, the biggest academic problem my daughter has I have come to realize years ago, I can DO it, but I can not teach it.

If only it were as simple as being calm and explained delays in my daughter and that would magically allow the district to actually help and not ignore the problems, she would have had a chance of succeeding for a long time, instead of being so far behind her peers.

Just because a parent doesn't "home-school" is in no way saying they don't do extra work at home-beyond the norm of homework-there are many parents who put in tons of hours with their child to try and help them get caught up. There are only so many hours in a day, just like when they are at school.

I, too, have filed complaints and in no way do I view it as adversial, sometimes, it is the only way to get the district to see that a parent isn't going quietly away. It isn't fun to file, is a bit time consuming depending on the violations, but at times, is something that has to be done since there is no other way of gaining the districts true attention. Even if that attention doesn't last any longer than it takes the state to make a decision, at least, it was another attempt on the parents part of getting their concerns heard.

What that teacher did to your son was horrible.
My only question is why does he take so long to complete his work--fine motor/writing problem? perfectionist? Did the teacher ever tell you why?
Make sure next year that you make it clear to the teacher that you want to know every disciplinary action taken on your child before it is taken and why. Also, ask your child every day in conversation to tell you stories about the bus, the school, the subs.
As far as speed goes, get him these stupid books boys love The Adventures of Captain Underpants-it's like a comic so they read it fast--I'm talking working up speed here, not literature. When he finishes those, there's three or four, get everything written by Roald Dahl--he'll love them especially James and the Giant Peach, Mathilda.
As for math, put every combination down on a piece of paper of adding every digit in combination: 1+1, 2+2, 2+1, 3+3,3+2 and so fourth with numbers 1through 9. Do some every day -four or five, then read together. When he's reading alone, you read one of his books that you got from the libraryand say I'm dying to know what this story is about-pick Mathilda--it's wonderful.
As he writes down his answers for his four or five problems, he'll get faster as he gets better at knowing the answers. When you begin, you can orally say the four problems and give him the answers and then do his little quiz with the ones you just gave him and see how he does--it doesn't matter, you can both laugh--the point is you've succeeded in doing them twice with fun. See?
I'm assuming here he can read.

''When you file a complaint it can be perceived as being aadversarial ''

How is following the special ed laws adversial?? Is what the school did to me and my child NOT adversial?? If they would have just done their job and not be so nasty about it, I wouldn't have had to do that.
What was I suppose to do? Just walk away and do nothing? I had done everything else I knew to do.

'' as I stated in my own personal account it took us 4 years of data collection to get results he was tested as a 3rd grader -- you accomplished yours in 2 1/2. ''

When you request an eval to be done, they are not suppose to take YEARS to do this, they are suppose to take 45 to 60 days, according to the state you are in.

I did not have all this time to pass by on my account. It was THEM who kept lying and putting it off.

''I can tell you, they expelled him for having 2 many absences as a HS student despite the IEP & medical documentation so he didn't finish HS.''

If the IDEA laws were followed by parents and school this might have been prevented, or maybe not.
It's according to the reasons of the absenses.
I'm not saying it would have, the school might have put up a fight.

Kewpie wrote - 'This when parents get angry, hurt and bitter realizing that they have been strung along by the school staff they trusted. ''

ANOTHER BINGO !!

Kewpie wrote -- 2) If a teacher who has a spent 4 years in college learning how to teach PLUS 2 MORE years to get a MS in SP ed, can't teach my child, how is the parent qualified to do this?

I wondered this too when I started homeschool. I come to the conclusion that I HAD to try,the teachers sure werent' doing anything with their so called degrees and college.

My dd is learning WAY more at home than she ever DID or ever WILL learn at public school.

Cinderbell wrote -- Just because a parent doesn't "home-school" is in no way saying they don't do extra work at home-beyond the norm of homework-there are many parents who put in tons of hours with their child to try and help them get caught up.


Boy aint' that the truth! Most times you feel like you are doing the teachers job, especially when your child brings home graded papers with good grades and you find out all the answers were changed, plus you go over the work with her and find out she can't do ANY of it.

I have to say this again, I just don't see how anyone can think that schools can do all this wrong to children, but then the parent is not suppose to do anything about it?? The schools do all this crap and are NOT seen as adversial, but when the parents find out the wrong doing and try to make it right by following the law, it IS adversial??

Some parents DO go about things civil, respectfully, etc. But when this doesn't work, SOMETHING has to be done. This is your child you are talking about, here.

I never said I agreed with the perception I only stated the perception that is had by the schools when you file.

Special Ed teacher's don't evaluate your children nor are they trained to -- usually an outside psychologist contracted with the school district does this and sometimes getting them at the school is difficult. It just occurred to me though -- if you are verbally making requests it may not hold water -- file the paperwork to request testing or write a formal letter that requests testing. If you don't do this, the school will probably forget about it.

Teacher Education......... don't get me started on that topic. I find that teachers that have years of experience are "stuck" on one way of doing things its worked all this time so it will continue to work and it must be the kid mentality makes me crazy and I stare at these teachers ALL DAY LONG. While experience is nice, it can also hinder a teacher from being effective, they aren't open to change -- hence the teacher that didn't think about a child having a learning disability. Brand new teachers or teachers with 5 or less years of experience haven't had enough interactions to know what they are looking at and what isn't "normal". Teachers between 6-20 years are in the middle of their careers and are refining what they know, but TEACHERS ARE NOT TRAINED TO DIAGNOSE A CHILD'S LEARNING PROBLEMS and they have never been trained to do this. Sure they can identify which kids can't add maybe & try different methods & tools to get the kids adding, but beyond identifying symptoms of a bigger problem and putting band-aids on them that's all we are trained to do. Our education is minimal, a class on this a class on that & I'll tell you one class does not make you an expert on the topic -- we become experts by trial and error with YOUR KID. I know that doesn't sound great, but my best lessons have been learned in the 4 walls in my classroom with my kids & from my kids & sometimes from their parents. I know teachers should be the experts -- but, many can't afford the training needed to become the experts. The average starting teacher with a BS/BA is paid $22,000 per year. Could you raise a family on that kind of money and take classes that cost $500 per class -- I couldn't. I spent another 10,000 to get a master' degree and I was only able to do that because my husband invited me to move in with him while we were dating & I was able to use my rent money to pay the tuition. I'm currently looking to pay another $10,000 to earn another 32 credits so I can garner another increase in pay. Most people are given raises based on performance & not solely based on level of education. Our degree programs whether Bachelor's or Master's don't prepare us for every little situation that may arise in a classroom -- truthfully we enter the classroom just slightly more prepared then parents to educate kids. You taught them to eat, tie their shoes, crawl, play, etc. and you aren't at the very least expert enough on your own kid to know how he or she learns or the difficulties he or she has -- you rely on a teacher to tell you this??? We spend the first half of the year learning what makes your kid tick (90 days --basically 3 months) & the last half trying to decide on what to do about your child's problems. How many of you could make an important decision about a kid you'd only interacted with for 3 months?? We often run out of time to do anything about it after we complete the mountain of paperwork that is required & jump through all the hoops and track progess for 12-15 weeks try interventions & track progress for another 6-8 weeks before it is finally decided a kid has a problem that we can't figure out and we call a psychologist to test and determine what's going on. So if their are 36 weeks of school & I spent 12 of them giving your kid and I time to adapt & learn the material & each other and then I spend 12 more weeks documenting interventions & then I'm sent to do another 6 weeks of interventions that only gives us 36 days to test most schools cut the referral time off at 45 days before school is out -- so guess what your kid doesn't get tested & next year the process starts all over again with a new teacher -- that's what holds up the progress -- the national laws that are designed to protect your kids also make it hard on teachers to make testing refferrals, which winds up leaving parents frustrated and feeling like the school somehow "deceived" you. Parents can request testing -- but often the process is the same interventions, progress monitoring, more interventions & a decision to test or not test. thus the reason for years and years and years....... thus the reason why parents should come in with paper documentation of what they've observed to help usher the process along -- why look at it like you are doing the schools job and be mad about it -- that kid is your job, do what you can to help the school expedite the process rather then complain about what they aren't doing! Parent requests are not always a do not pass go directly to jail sort of scenario when it comes to testing -- some of you perceive that the national laws say this but they don't -- in fact IDEA only covers students with identified disabilities and until your child qualifies he's a general ed kid until tested and the lack of testing is not illegal. Once a child qualifies -- then you have protection, but as a parent the burden of proof is on you since you are the one filing the complaint. That's as it is with any court case, you have to fight to make your point -- no special priveleges because your kid has a disability. The supreme court voted on this issue 6-2 stating that the burden of proof is on the parents when they want to prove their child's program is inadequate. You can read about the decision on www.fapeonline.org if you don't believe me. Your struggles go way beyond your child's school or the inadequacy of the teachers to do their job -- your hands are tied unless you have tons of money to hire the big guns to take on the school district.

The problem isn't always getting the school to test, it comes after testing is done also. My daughter has been in sped for 4 years-for the first 3 years I was lied to about her "progress". Every goal progress sheet stated she attained all goals and objectives. A year and a half ago, I found out this was BS. Not saying she didn't attain some of those goals-but a few weren't and they never added those goals back in for the next year-they simply dropped them and never looked back, so to speak. My daughter has always struggled in math and, for the first time at an annual IEP, it was admittied my dd didn't make all obj. and were added in for the next year(last year). Nothing was spoken as to why this happened and I was in the dark as her progress sheets still stated she would attain all obj. Last year, they placed in her a reg ed math class in which she failed all tests(except 2) and never knew how to do her math homework. After numerous emails and 7 IEP meetings, the district still did nothing. They see nothing wrong in passing her through from one year to the next...well, of course, I do.

There is much, much more but I won't post.....all I am saying is, that even though she has been tested(years ago) and is and has been in sped, my district still does nothing to help even though test scores and state testing, psyc. evals from the end of the year before, all show regression in math(also in reading comp.) they see absolutely nothing wrong with passing a failing student on-who will surely continue to drown year after year, despite what is being taught at home. The district has made it that my daughter is so far behind peers, she will not catch up. I, like all parents, can only do so much at home.

The point is, even though schools know there is a major problem, so many could care less....and where does that leave the student? Sadly, they are left to swin in an ocean with no life jacket.

'' you aren't at the very least expert enough on your own kid to know how he or she learns or the difficulties he or she has -- you rely on a teacher to tell you this???''

I did not mean that teachers should know what my childs problems are. If I knew that you thought that I would have clarified. Sorry about that!

I know that teachers are not qualified to make diagnosis and know what the childs problems are. I know that reg ed teachers do not get this training.

I was not relying on the teacher to tell me what her problems were. What I was talking about is, it is the TESTING that determines what the childs problems are and what needs to be done to help, and NOT the TEACHER.

What I meant by they did not care and did not want to find out what her problems were is becuase they would not do the TESTING, not because the teacher did not care or did not want to find out what her problems were.

Of course she cared, she was the only one who did, besides the school psych who got fired for helping me understand her testing once they did it (which is part of his job).

And even the teacher stopped helping me and stopped all contact with me when I asked for the eval to be done.


And, the reason I brought the whole thing up about not
knowing what my childs problems are,, is because you said that parents go to the school demanding what they want for their child, and I told you I did not do this because I didn't even know what mine needed, not because I expected the teacher to know what her problems were.

When I say I didn't know what her problems were, I mean that I didn't know what her DIAGNOSIS is. I didn't know if she had a math disablitiy, spelling disability, reading disabilitiy, writing disability, etc. And she had problems in ALL these areas (and I DID know what problems she had in these areas) and the school STILL would not do testing for her. The sped director said there was no need for it and that she was fine. He had never laid eyes on her in his life.

Lots of times when a parent explains their childs problems to the school, the school ignores these problems, sometimes saying 'don't worry about it, WE are the experts, WE know what's best for your child'. And some parents (not all) believe them. They trust them.

But when you WANT them to help, they turn right around and say they ARENT" the experts.

I did make my request to the school in writing to have testing done and all of this still happened.

Speaking of teachers doing interventions before a child has testing done to see if they qualify for special ed-- all teachers that I have ever come in contact with does not know this is illegal when a PARENT asks for this eval to be done.

IDEA law states that when a parent asks for this eval, it MUST be done within 45-60 days of the parents request. It does NOT state that interventions have to be done first.

Now, I know about RTI and that this is interventions that have to be done before sped eligibility testing, but this is done if the SCHOOL wants to determine if a child can qualify for special ed , NOT the parent.

All schools have 'intervention programs' called SST, IAT, CST, etc. according to the state you are in. And if a SCHOOL wants to see if a child can qualify, this program must be done for the child for 6 weeks. That is, in my state. It could be more or less for other states.

Even so, the school had my dd in this program for 2 1/2 yrs knowing I did not know this was illegal, and having no intentions of ever doing testing to see if she qualified for special ed.

If a child doesn't progress with the interventions within 6 weeks, then testing is done to see if child qualifies for special ed.

For my state, the SST rules that are listed on the GA dept of education website states that at any time during the SST process that the parent requests the eval to be done, it MUST be done.

It surprised me that none of the teachers I have been in contact with do not know this.

I'm not sure if IDEA law states this, but lawyers have - the SST interventions can be done at the same time the eval is done, but not BEFORE or INSTEAD of the eval being done.

'''track progress for another 6-8 weeks before it is finally decided a kid has a problem that we can't figure out and we call a psychologist to test and determine what's going on. '''

Teachers do not and are not suppose to decide if a child has problems enough to warrant an eval to determine sped eligibility . (by doing weeks of interventions)
You said it yourself ---

'' you aren't at the very least expert enough on your own kid to know how he or she learns or the difficulties he or she has -- you rely on a teacher to tell you this???''

Parents feel decieved because the school administrators will not admit ANY of this and go ahead and stall and violate laws. Some parents know that some teachers don't know the IDEA laws and the teachers blindly do what the school tells them to do.

But the administrators DO know the laws and know they aren't suppose to do any of this when a PARENT asks for an eval.

They KNOW all this is ILLEGAL and use it all as a stall tactic and/or get out of doing the eval altogether.

'''Parents can request testing -- but often the process is the same interventions, progress monitoring, more interventions & a decision to test or not test.'''


When a parent requests testing the school is not suppose to 'decide' if they are going to do it or not. They are to just do it.

''' thus the reason why parents should come in with paper documentation of what they've observed to help usher the process along --'''

Some parents DO do this, I know I sure did, and the school shunned all of it and STILL went thru the illegal stall tactics and violations.

''why look at it like you are doing the schools job and be mad about it -- that kid is your job,''

But it is the SCHOOLS job when the child is at school, this is what they get PAID for.

'' that kid is your job, do what you can to help the school expedite the process rather then complain about what they aren't doing! ''

I DID do this and they STILL didn't do a thing, thus me resorting to filing state complaints and PWN requests. This is not COMPLAINING, this is following the LAW.

But yea you BET I complained!! But I did it NICELY in letters and phone calls ONLY stating FACTS and not EMOTIONS. It did not matter not one bit.

''some of you perceive that the national laws say this but they don't -- in fact IDEA only covers students with identified disabilities and until your child qualifies he's a general ed kid until tested and the lack of testing is not illegal.''

What do you mean by 'identified'? Many schools say that just becuase a child has a disability they do not automatically qualify for special ed, thus are not covered by IDEA law.

IDEA law states that in order for a child to have 'identified disabilities' the school has to do an EVALUATION to determine if a child has identified disablitites, and NOT have 'interventions' done to determine this.

Here's the IDEA law under evaluations, not the WHOLE law --

www.wrightslaw.com/idea/law/idea.regs.subpartd.pdf

Sorry I couldn't figure out how to copy and paste here, but go to page 12 under section 300.301
It does not state anywhere that the school is suppose to do interventions, it does not state that a school can refuse to do an eval.

Look at the link below for 'child find'. It is on page 307 in the middle of the page, 300.111 .

www.wrightslaw.com/idea/law/FR.v71.n156.pdf

It states that all children with disabilities are identified, located, and evaluated.
Go down to 4 (c) and it states that children included in this are to be identified with a disability under 300.8

300.8 is on page 218. This states ''a child with a disabliity means a child EVALUATED in accordance with 300.304 through 300.301

In the middle of page 218 under 2 (i) it states that if it is determined WITH AN APPROPRIATE EVALUATION that a child only needs a related service but not special ed, the child is not a child with a disablity.


All this is saying that the school has to do an evaluation FIRST in order to determine if a child has a disablity or not , and NOT do INTERVENTIONS first to see if they have disabilities.


''Once a child qualifies -- then you have protection,''

The IDEA law covers kids that are not qualified YET, because it states a child has to be evaluated in order to determine if he qualifies.

THe sped director said my child is not covered by IDEA so she doesnt' have to have the eval done. How stupid is this?

This is saying that a child has to ALREADY be in special ed to see if she QUALIFIES for special ed.

A child who is NOT in special ed DOES have the protection under the IDEA to have the evaluation done BEFORE they qualify for special ed.

If a child doesn't have the protection of IDEA until they are IN special ed, then NO CHILD would have an eval done to see if they qualify for special ed in the first place.


'''but as a parent the burden of proof is on you since you are the one filing the complaint. That's as it is with any court case, you have to fight to make your point -- no special priveleges because your kid has a disability.'''

Yes this is true when you FILE A COMPLAINT. But requesting an eval and filing a complaint is 2 different things.
But a parent does NOT have to prove a child needs special ed services in order to have the eval done, this is what the eval is for.
It is the EVAL that DETERMINES if a child needs special ed or not, and NOT the interventions that the school does or the proof that the parents bring. The parents can have all the proof in the world and the school still can not say a child is eligilble for special ed UNTIL they do the eval that determines this!!


''no special priveleges because your kid has a disability.'''

Yes I know that a child does not qualify for special ed 'just because' he has a disability, the eval has to be done first in order to determine this, and this is what some schools refuse to do.

'''The supreme court voted on this issue 6-2 stating that the burden of proof is on the parents when they want to prove their child's program is inadequate.'''

Yes I understand this, and it's true, but a program has nothing to do with a child having a special ed evaluation, this is about a childs program once he's already in special ed.

''Your struggles go way beyond your child's school or the inadequacy of the teachers to do their job -- your hands are tied unless you have tons of money to hire the big guns to take on the school district. ''

Boy ain't THAT the truth! But, some parents don't take the school to court when they THINK the school is wrong or because they won't help a child, they take the schools to court when they KNOW the school is outright blatantly lying and violating the law when they SHOULD be helping the child, and in my case evaluating the child.

Before you take a school to court, you are suppose to follow the legal process and go thru the 'chain of command' so to speak. This starts with parent requesting PWN for their refusal of services or whatever the parent asked for (in my case this would be the eval).

I asked for PWN and did not get it, so I filed state complaint for this. And school was not suppose to refuse to do the eval, so I filed state complaint for this also.

The state made the school do the eval which is saying to me that the school does NOT have a choice in the matter, they can NOT decide to NOT do the testing.

Now, if all this happened and the school STILL didn't do the eval, this is when court comes in.

WHEW that was a lot!!!

Getting what your child really needs usually end up in a settlement with the parents, lawyers and a top rep from the district. Not from the IEP team, not from the teaching staff.
Unfortunately, the getting Sp ed assistance from the immediate school staff is like speaking to the teller at the bank window trying to get a loan. You have to skip all that and go straight to the bank president. If your case is a good one, there will be some deliberation and papers will usually be signed. Unfortunately, there can be years of failure, lots of $ spent for tutoring, etc, in-between. If the case is good, the legal fees are usually paid by the district.
Altho this is somewhat rare, I actually had my district file against me and we cross-filed on other allegations. On the first DAY, they gave up their case and offered comp ed for some real wrong doing and they had ignored my letters asking for help in a teacher's very unprofessional/abusive behavior towards my child. The case continued on and we won the majority of the case which left the district with a huge legal bill plus a LOT of expenses they had to reimburse me on. The case never should have come to court but the attorney had a real grudge against me because I had brought a previous case against them for my other child that they just could'nt win.
Speaking of unprofessional behavior, I have always been polite and never raised my voice in meetings BUT at least one of the teachers at my child former school has told another Sped parent that I was a "crazy b*tch". This parent had come to me for advice. My advice was quite good because she was finally awarded an offer of private placement. So much for being a Crazy you-know-what!

''Unfortunately, the getting Sp ed assistance from the immediate school staff is like speaking to the teller at the bank window trying to get a loan. You have to skip all that and go straight to the bank president. ''

Yep, you sure do! This is not what you do first though,
it suppose to be that going thru the IEP team first *IS* how you get what your child needs.

But when they won't do right after you do this, like you say you have to go higher up the chain. But you don't skip the IEP team altogether, you go thru them first.
(but I know exactly what you mean)

''If your case is a good one, there will be some deliberation and papers will usually be signed.''

I hope it's ok to explain to those here who think the parents are just 'demanding' the school to do things for their child without going thru the legal channels.

The 'case' in this situation does NOT mean that the parent has to get up documentation, proof, etc to show that the child deserves the 'demands' of the parent.

In some cases, this has already been decided. The IEP team has already decided what help they are to provide the child ,,
and parents make a case to go to court when the school does not follow thru in implementing the IEP plan and/or does not give more help if the child is not progressing.

Am I correct kewpie??

During the initial evaluation process you (as a parent) can request an initial evaluation, but your child hasn't qualified yet so your child isn't protected under IDEA so a district can sit on your request for as long as they like. Ethically they shouldn't & the general guideline is 45-60 days, but that isn't the law.

Interventions are designed to determine if the child's problem is because of instruction or a genuine issue with the child. If we intervene & the child makes progress we generally postpone the test, that's not true in all cases. If we intervene & it still doesn't work we change interventions & if that works again we may or may not test. We may just say this child needs these strategies & we follow this avenue, we don't test. If we intervene & nothing changes and we intervene again & still nothing changes then we test.

You guys sound as though you look at kids and say Oh that kid has a problem -- let's get him tested. 3/4 of America's kids have difficulty learning in some way or another -- should they all be evaluated for special ed???? I mean do you really want IEP's to be written for kids that just need to learn the English language (ESL), on Sped tests in English they appear to have LD, but genuinely don't have one. Special Ed is the last line of defense not the first.

Even if you do test, you still need the RTI data to help in writing the IEP. SPED testing is technically a collection of tests and RTI data. The tests only confirm yes your kid is struggling. The results only indicate a problem, it is up to the human, usually a psychologist to look at the results & determine if your child qualifies and give the problem a label.

Once your child qualifies you and a group of others sit down to discuss the IEP, most parents sit in the meetings passively & don't vocalize anything, they just assume that we know best. Those that do vocalize concerns are rare, and if you have 5 people in a room discussing an IEP and one of those is a parent the parents voice counts as 1/5 of the vote. A parents voice doesn't weigh more then any other person's voice in that meeting. The other 4 are in agreement about the IEP's content so usually it stands to reason that you'd meet resistance when 4 school officials agree about the problems and how to fix them. Often times the IEP is already written & they are going over the findings & plan of action.

I will say this -- I had the impression from jdeekdee, cinderbell, kewpie and a few others that you didn't go through the chain of command -- but rather straight to the top.

Anytime you go against the norm you will be perceived as being adversarial or a rebel -- I think we can all agree on that. I think there is a lot of anger here and you have that right, but the original post was about a kid staying in at recess to complete his or her work and this strand has somehow turned into a battleground about how bad schools are at enforcing special ed laws. I've posted with a couple of you on a couple other strands and the same thing happened there -- what's the deal?? I think if you are that mad, you need to blog on a strand that allows you to VENT. It's good advice to tell this parent to request an eval, but in your venting all you've managed to communicate is that even though you request it, its probably not going to get done or if it gets done and your kid qualifies then you will still have to "fight" for your kid. How helpful is that???? This parent wanted to know what she could do to help her kid, not what your experiences have been with the schools your kid attends. This parent is now no closer to an answer then when she first asked the question.

This was tried with our son as well. I have not read all the replies below; however, I made sure that our son's IEP states that he is to receive reduced assignments. Ask the staff to reduce the amount of the assignments while maintaining the difficulty level. As long as the child understands the concept he should not have to stay in from recess. Does he have LD”s?

''Ethically they shouldn't & the general guideline is 45-60 days, but that isn't the law.''

The federal law IDEA leaves it up to each state on how long they take to complete an eval. Check your state laws for special ed.

''I mean do you really want IEP's to be written for kids that just need to learn the English language (ESL), on Sped tests in English they appear to have LD, but genuinely don't have one. ''

NO, of course not!

Here are the problems my child has/had --
1. very bad spelling, spells words like they sound
vacation - vakashun
2. wrote most letters and numbers backwards at 8 yrs old. Teachers always say they'll catch up - yea right.
She is 10 and STILL does this. We are working on this from a program from AVKO.
3. Reading comprehension problems - can read very well but not know what she reads
4. Does not comprehend what others are saying at times.
5. Can not understand even/odd, carrying over in addition, regrouping for subtracting, telling time
6. When the school finally did do testing, 2 advocates said the testing shows speech/language problems, possible dyslexia, and math problems.
7. School testing score of oral comprehension was 57.
8. More I can't think of off the top of my head right now.


''Once your child qualifies you and a group of others sit down to discuss the IEP, most parents sit in the meetings passively & don't vocalize anything, they just assume that we know best. ''

Yes we DO because schools TELL us they do. When parents DO talk about the childs problems, some schools brush them off 'we know what's best for your child, he/she does not have this problem, etc.

We DO assume the schools know best becuase that's what WE pay THEM for. Usually when we speak up and have ideas and suggestions, some teacher/school gets very defensive.

''Those that do vocalize concerns are rare, and if you have 5 people in a room discussing an IEP and one of those is a parent the parents voice counts as 1/5 of the vote. ''

Remember when you said your mom could not get the school to help your brother after many conversations AND after 4 YEARS?? WHY was that?? Did she not speak up??

Most parents start out talking, but when some schools find out that the parent is going to be pro active, they start to be very intimidating, hoping the parent will not voice concerns, start stonewalling, stalling, etc.


''I will say this -- I had the impression from jdeekdee, cinderbell, kewpie and a few others that you didn't go through the chain of command -- but rather straight to the top.''

I will tell you this-- We got to the top BECAUSE we DID go thru the chain of command and NOTHING was done at each level.

As for me, I asked for an eval, did not know the laws and didn't do it in writing, so school put if off by doing this SST crap, then when I learned the laws a little more and asked again, they said they couldn't do it - no money (which is an illegal reason to refuse testing)

I learned a little more and requested the eval in writing, then got a bunch of crap from the school. The next up the chain of command is to request PWN for the refusal and file state complaint for violation of not doing the eval.

I think that if it was LEGAL for them to REFUSE the eval, the state would NOT have MADE them do it.

''Anytime you go against the norm you will be perceived as being adversarial or a rebel --''

PLEASE ELABORATE !! I would LOVE to know what I or any other parent here did to 'go against the norm'.
The NORM of the school is to go against the laws. So if this is what you mean, then YES I did.

But following the laws in getting your child help is NOT going against the norm! PREPOSTEROUS!!!

According to some schools, the NORM is to sit back and not say anything, let your child fail and not suceed, all the while believing when the school tells you 'we are the experts, your child is ok'

''It's good advice to tell this parent to request an eval, but in your venting all you've managed to communicate is that even though you request it, its probably not going to get done or if it gets done and your kid qualifies then you will still have to "fight" for your kid. How helpful is that???? ''


It's VERY helpful. Like it or not, this IS the NORM for special ed.

Nevermind, I give up. Yes this thread has gotten away from the original post and gotten out of hand.
I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

> I had the impression from jdeekdee, cinderbell, kewpie and a few others that you didn't go through the chain of command -- but rather straight to the top. <
LOL... I WISH!!!!!!!
Didn't you read the post where I said my child had learned nothing by 4th grade (age 9)? He started sp ed at age 3 . I think 6 years is a sufficient time to allow the IEP team to develop a plan and see if it is effective.
>This parent is now no closer to an answer then when she first asked the question. <
I disagee.
Many of us gave her advice. it is up to her to how she chooses to proceed. I do think the child should be evaluated to find out what processing problems may be hindering him. Early intervention is essential and can't be blown off. If there is no processing problem, then fine. If there is and if the child recieves apropriate intervention, his self esteem can remain intact and he won't fall behind. He has already been subjected to year long recess withdrawal and name calling. How much does a 6 year old have to endure?
By the way in our district, the sped teachers DO test the kids and others are administered by the school psych, not an outside psych.

Another thought on pre-written IEP's is why are they already written before a meeting? Could it possibly be to ensure the parent has no voice in what it says? This will happen to parents who do not know their rights, thus, the reason districts do not like parents who know too much about the process.

jd-you are welcome

Kennysmom - you are fighting a losing battle on this site. Almost every topic reverts to how messed up SPED programs are and how the teachers/admin don't care. In other words it turns into a venting session. I have given up trying to stay on topic.

Here is the scenario; "I would like to find a good reading program for my LD child." - First post may help, but the second post turns into how the SPED programs have ruined someone's life and the teachers don't care. Now it takes on its own life and people trade "horror stories" about evaluations, IEP's, the "messed up" teachers, etc. It's the same people venting on every topic. They don't care what the topic is, they turn it back into the same venting that they've said over and over. No help, just venting. They go from topic to topic to vent. I feel bad for the people who want help because these turn into the same old vent sessions.

Concerning the original topic - or should we vent some more?

Ask the teacher to grade quality, not quantity. Ask the teacher if your son can be given more time with fewer problems. Sometimes teachers get "tunnel vision" and think that a certain number of problems need to be worked out. Finishing really important work for homework, could also be an option (emphasis on really important - not everyday work).

Skipping recess a lot is not good as a student needs "settling time" where their brain isn't actively thinking. This allows the brain to "cement" the learned information and make solid connections. If work is not getting done, and the student is trying, there should be a red flag going up - especially in strategy use, basic knowledge of the skills (i.e. basic math facts, basic vocabulary, phonemic awareness), time allocation, executive functioning skills, etc. that need to be addressed. Staying in for recess may be helping to cure the symptoms and not do anything about the problem.

look this year is over. Over the summer get some books like spectrum - they have reading, writing and math books. maybe you can have him/her do this over the summer as a review and next year ask the teacher what her visiting hours are and show her what he did over the summer.. that may help you see things as they happen. A psychologist is good, but a mental health counselor is a lot better with discussing ideas. and maybe your child need to discuss this with someone other than you. it just might work. good luck.

"Reading a to z" (they have a website - google it and it will be one of the first ones to show up) also has some short books in pdf form, many of them are decodable phonics books that reinforce particular sounds. I use them as they have hundreds of books and they are goofy enough that kids actually like reading them. You pay for the site and you get access to everything. This might be something to supplement the summer. I would also try to talk with the new teacher before school starts, maybe bring some cookies or a snack, and brainstorm with him/her about what you would like to see happen.

Goodsoncc - great idea about the Spectrum series. While I have not used them, I have heard very good things about that series. Testing would also be extremely helpful because it is hard to come up with strategies if you don't know what is wrong. I would have him tested ASAP because the next school year will be over before you know it and reading problems get harder to fix as the student gets older. If you can afford it, I would have him tested outside the school if the school seems like it will take a long time (more than a couple of months). I know it can be expensive, and might not be an option, but if I had a preference, that's what I would do. I wouldn't wait though, as I said, time will fly by if you don't move sort of fast.

I would also have a friendly chat (I emphasize friendly) with his new teacher and request that he not be held back from recess - especially for academic reasons. If that does not seem to be working, a friendly chat with the Principal/Assistant Principal about this may also help - but please try to work with the new teacher first!

LSC thanks for your words of warning -- I'm beginning to see that you are 100% right. It's sad that people have to twist the posts making it about them. I'm not trying to be overbearing -- I'm trying to be helpful -- whether someone agrees/disagrees I don't really care. I'm not trying to "CONVINCE" anyone that my view is correct, I'm just trying to shed some realistic light on why parents may encounter problem and it isn't because schools & teachers don't care about kids as some seem to think -- the issue is far deeper. This is my last post on this strand as I'm going to take the "high road" and bow out of this conversation. If anyone wishes to have sound advice, feel free to email me privately on this sight, I won't promise to tell you what you want to hear, but I am a parent of a 13 year old and 4 year old & I have been an educator for over 10 years. I have worked to mainstream SPED kids into the gen ed setting for over 10 years. I have worked with autism, aspergers, OCD, ADD, ADHD, CP, ED, ODD, MR and many other conditions. I would love to answer any questions you may have.

Generally horror stories come up only because they can see another parent heading staright down that path and want them to go in with their eyes open. Or they have to prove by example that they are telling the truth, when naysayers object to their opinions.
Bad experiences are what they are.
Speaking of arbitration, I have been thru due process, and at least 6 mediations. I also do volunteer work and speak to many parents who tell the same stories over and over again. It is so sad.

I realize that the educators don't like to hear these sorts of things but abuses of IDEA are rampant and parents who have settlements are bound with gag orders to keep quiet.
It is doing a diservice to children and parents to pretend everything is great. 4-5 out of 10 kids drop out of high schools and the biggest percentage of them are the diagnosed and undiagnosed LD children.

"Generally horror stories come up only because they can see another parent heading staright down that path and want them to go in with their eyes open. Or they have to prove by example that they are telling the truth, when naysayers object to their opinions.
Bad experiences are what they are.
Speaking of arbitration, I have been thru due process, and at least 6 mediations. I also do volunteer work and speak to many parents who tell the same stories over and over again. It is so sad."

I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with "My child has to consistently stay in for recess?"

kewpie,
I agree with you and it's heatbreaking.

RRBTmom,

If you are still here, obviously, you need to try to talk with the school. Your son should not be missing recess and, if this is something that happens often, the teacher should have talked with you about that.
May be you could discuss about accommodations with hte school and may be ask them what, in their opinion, makes you son slow.

But obviously, I know some people here think that, because they are great teachers, all teachers is like that, but clearly, if you have not been told that your son misses recess, this needs to be brought to the administration's attention. Sorry, but even if you were a parent that never talked to the teacher, there are letters and emails for that.

LCSEgypt and Kennysmom, whether you want to believe it or not, there are teachers that are not so great, there are administrators that are not so great and prevent teachers to do their work. Difficult to understand which it is with so little details, but I cannot understand why you are so reticent to acknowledge that?

"LCSEgypt and Kennysmom, whether you want to believe it or not, there are teachers that are not so great, there are administrators that are not so great and prevent teachers to do their work. Difficult to understand which it is with so little details, but I cannot understand why you are so reticent to acknowledge that?"

I just refuse to get involved in conversations that are off-topic and beating the same old dead horse. If you want to talk about bad teachers, bad admin, IDEA problems, then start a topic about that. I would be happy to discuss it in that area. This topic isn't about bad teachers, but some of you interject that into every topic and it is getting very old. I agree there are problems, but once again, is this a post about that or about a child being held back from recess? I thought that I said that the recess problem should be brought up ASAP. Did you not read that, or are you just trying to "pick a fight" with me because I am a teacher?

I agree with kennysmom. If someone wants my feedback, I will try to help, but please email because this is once again just turning into teacher bashing and not about solving problems.

OK, I give up too. I think that the parent who asked the question has already fled this thread, so it would only mean arguing with people who cannot stand anybody thinking that every school is not perfect.

For the record, in our school system, I have met both types of teachers, helpful and not helpful. This said, even the helpful ones could not really help because of the administration above.

>I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with "My child has to consistently stay in for recess?"<
It was a just reply to a previous post that daisy chanied into arbitration which came form the topic of getting sevices and evaluations which DOES have to do with the child in the original posting who may have a undiagnosed processing disorder. You probably did not read back far enough. Basically I feel that this posters child shound be evaluated to see if a processing order exists. My 17 year old has a really severe one and it hinders him greatly. It is a severly disabling problem that frequently goes unrecognized and diagnosed.

kewpie,
You NAILED this with "Generally horror stories come up only because they can see another parent heading staright down that path and want them to go in with their eyes open. Or they have to prove by example that they are telling the truth, when naysayers object to their opinions." I couldn't agree more. The vast numbers of posts with these horror stories are testimony enormity of the problem.

And LSCegypt.... If a child is constantly missing recess because work isn't being done, that's a red flag for testing. The fact that the school hasn't notified the parent all year indicates to many of us parents that have been deceived by their school districts that this parent might have a similar problem. Like kewpie said.... we see someone heading down the same path and want to help prevent that. Telling a parent to just go talk to the teacher is asking them to bury their head in the sand.

You are ignoring the importance of their child not being able to complete the work in the same timeframe as the other children. Thus, the parents suggesting testing are VERY ON TOPIC. Just because the advice differs from yours does not make it inappropriate.

You mocked members of this board with:
"Here is the scenario; "I would like to find a good reading program for my LD child." - First post may help, but the second post turns into how the SPED programs have ruined someone's life and the teachers don't care. Now it takes on its own life and people trade "horror stories" about evaluations, IEP's, the "messed up" teachers, etc. It's the same people venting on every topic."

So.... according to you, we are to ignore the fact that the SCHOOL is supposed to be providing FAPE and suggest programs for the parent to buy. So much for the F in FAPE standing for FREE.

But then again, perhaps you feel like KM that parents, should just quit their jobs, take their child out of the schools that their taxes paid for, and teach them at home..... Because we all know parent KNOW all that is required to teach their LD child.

So you'd rather we just mumble about reading programs for the parent's to buy and ignore the REASON the reading program is being requested. Perhaps that would be easier (and definately briefer), but those of us that HAVE been burned would find it irresponsible.

I've read some of your earlier posts and feel that you are a great teacher. You sound like you are patient and caring with your students. I only wish that carried over to parents.

Teacher bashing?????? MOST (not all) problems discussed deal with DISTRICT decisions or teachers acting on the district's orders. Get over yourself.

Who is ignoring the fact that the student is not completing the work? Please stop the hatred and read. Here is what I said in an earlier post -

"Goodsoncc - great idea about the Spectrum series. While I have not used them, I have heard very good things about that series. Testing would also be extremely helpful because it is hard to come up with strategies if you don't know what is wrong. I would have him tested ASAP because the next school year will be over before you know it and reading problems get harder to fix as the student gets older. If you can afford it, I would have him tested outside the school if the school seems like it will take a long time (more than a couple of months). I know it can be expensive, and might not be an option, but if I had a preference, that's what I would do. I wouldn't wait though, as I said, time will fly by if you don't move sort of fast."

What part of "have him tested ASAP" do you not understand Buckaroo? I also stated that being held back from recess is not okay. Let go of the bashing and read please. I am saying that this situation (being held back from recess) is not okay. Please read that again - "It is not okay to hold the student like this back for that reason". The student is obviously having a problem finishing work. Should we just bash the teachers, admin, and schools, or should we come up with ideas to help. I tried to come up with ideas, but please, if you think it would help, ignore the ideas I have posted - which you have done - and go back to the off-topic "let's go after anyone who does not want to hear our horror stories" approach.

Ignorance is bliss. You said, "You are ignoring the importance of their child not being able to complete the work in the same timeframe as the other children. Thus, the parents suggesting testing are VERY ON TOPIC. Just because the advice differs from yours does not make it inappropriate." I very clearly said that testing should be done ASAP and that the parent should make sure that happens and to not let time get away from her. What part of that do you not understand? I said that the student should not be held back from recess, that the student should be tested, that the parent should meet with the new teacher and discuss this "staying in during recess" issue - if nothing happens, bring it to the Principal/Assistant Principal - and I gave some ways to help in the short term (quality over quantity, extra time, previewing, etc. ). But I know you will ignore that and say I disagree with testing and advocate doing nothing.

I can honestly see why the parents here are having the problems they are having. No matter anyone says, you go on the attack - instead of working with them, you ignore what they are saying and go for the argument. The victim mentality is not helping, it is hurting the efforts of parents being effective advocates for their children, and their children need advocates not people who feel like the world is out to get them.

Buckaroo - learn to read. You will act like a role model for your child. If you read my posts, you see that I don't advocate doing nothing, and I think that something should be done ASAP. We disagree on what that is. You seem to think that it is "let's gripe about our situations." and I think we should be looking to solve the problems.

I'm sorry everyone, but reading posts where someone has TOTALLY ignored what I have posted and tried to make me seem like I don't care really makes me mad. If you disagree with what I am saying - great. I do have a problem with this "build up a pile of lies and then attack them attitude" that some people seem to have.

'''I just refuse to get involved in conversations that are off-topic and beating the same old dead horse. '''

WHO WROTE THIS ???

Look I have one of those kids. He is gifted with adhd. takes test and gets 100's and cannot finish what the teachers consider simple assignments. he has been tested, on medicine, and i have spoken to everyone, when the bottom line comes in the school passes it on. The teachers my son have had are great. but it took a lot of work. and when i said testing, the testing comes out different in different situations. Work with the teachers but remember everybody believes they are overworked and underpaid. The principal can not and will not believe that they are possible missing something. Try to be patint and remember that sometimes no one can admit they are wrong or missing something. compare what everyone says and sort out the comments.

I am shocked to see all of hte responses to the post. I appreciate people taking the time. It has cleared up a few things for me.

I was upset with the teacher because I did go to every parent teacher conference and she did tell me he had been slow getting his work done, but never that he had been staying in for recess at all, and with this being my first child in school, I was wondering if that was a common problem. However, I also thought my son should have told me, who also did not. I have talked with him and told him I need to be told these things because it is the only way I can help him. He had not wanted to disappoint me and was embarrassed.
So I didn't wholly blame either and I havent' bothered talking to the principal because it was the end of the school year, my son won't be having that teacher again and I was more interested in putting my efforts into what will help my son from here.

I was also considering having him evaluated at the time of the post, but wondered if I was being overzealous because other than being slow, his work is done well and correctly and his grades are good. His testing is in the 90% with one score of 89%. But after reading the posts I think it would be reasonable to ask for an evaluation. However, I will wait to see if the first month or so shows the same problem. I have also wondered if he just didin't like that teacher or the approach or that teacher/class calling him slow just mad him believe it. Definitely it affected his self esteem - I hope it may be different in 2nd grade, but we will see.

It also confused me because the days I went in, he had no problem finishing his work and I don't know if it was because he wanted to please me - or they did anything differently the days I was there. So, I think, the best I can do with that is attend when I can in his new class - which I can possibly do about 4 times the first month, and I will speak to his teacher as soon as possible about the problem and hope to work well with the new teacher.
It was confusing to me, being new to having a child in school, and being shocked at the end of the year by this news, but it has been an education for me and there was a lot of information in the posts that have helped me.
This summer we have been doing reading together and I am seeing him get better and feel good about that so I hope that is helping. We have been counting his money and other things to help him keep up his math skills and he loves science so we have had a few projects that way. I am hoping that helps with his self esteem for learning.
Thanks so much - school starts in mid august and I will post to let you know what happens from there - Thanks for taking your time to respond.

oh, and, by the way, I will add that my child is not hyper at all and not a discipline problem at all - all the room mothers and teacher agree with that - he's more quiet and shy and quite obedient and hates to get into trouble. - FYI - because some of the post did mention problems with very active kids.

Goodsoncc you are right. Many people don't like to believe they are wrong, and don't try to look for other answers. When the student is not finishing his work, something is wrong. learning is so complicated that no one really knows everything, let alone someone who is trained to be a teacher and not a neuro psychologist, but that is no excuse for not trying and learning to solve problems such as these.

The teacher who had the student in for all of those recesses should have reached out for help and changed some stuff around - i.e. give fewer questions, grade on quality, not quantity, preview more, or give work not completed in class for homework. After having stayed in for a few recesses, the student is probably hating school. I know I would have hated school. The parent needs to get him tested and make sure that this does not continue (the staying for recess bit). If it's not working, it needs to be reevaluated.

Everyone feels they are overworked and underpaid - well I feel that way too, but teaching is what I really like to do so I don't care. It sounds as if the teacher either does not know what to do about the recess problem or is being "pig headed" and stubborn. With a new year, testing should be priority number one, stopping the whole recess staying in should be a close priority number two, and priority number three should be trying alternative strategies until a plan can be developed.

I have not read all of the posts - sorry if I suggest something that is a repeat. My son has consistently lost recess over the years and is gifted/ADHD. He is not very hyper - just restless and tests well but can not finish anything. He has a writing learning disability and executive functioning issues. I also think that continued failure in the classroom has made him give up even faster. Staying in for recess - especially if it results in nothing - just emphasizes to the child that they are different and everyone knows it. The kids treated him differently, too. He was not misbehaving -just wasn't keeping up with the written work load.

Kids like my son are very sensitive and even if they are not bullied out-right, they perceive that they are bullied and that leads to more failure and clogs up their mind when they should be concentrating on school work.

We are going to try a private school for children with learning disabilies this next year and hope that he will enjoy learning and school again.

Do the testing but also ask your child (next year) if he feels he is bullied. Ask to meet with the teacher before school starts and ask for a new teacher if you have a gut feeling that it will not go well. Good luck...

chrismom, we had the same experience all last year and I never found out about it until the end. You are absolutely right. My son is quiet and sensitive, and he underwent all the same things.

Chrismom - it's called "learned helplessness" and I agree it is a huge problem that needs to be addressed ASAP before the student comes to associate school with a miserable experience. Staying in because you didn't finish - if you were actually working - is the lamest thing I have ever heard. Maybe too much work is being assigned, or is the teacher wanting quantity over quality? Students need their recess just as much as teachers need a recess. It gives the students time to settle and get rid of energy. Taking it away for the reason stated is stupid, or at the very least, very misguided.

Whatever the reason, it's important to keep in mind that "learned helplessness" is actually depression, which alot of kids - specially with learning differences, develop as a result of all the ways they are viewed and treated every day at school.

I agree and learned helplessness is not good. That is why this should be dealt with now, and not wait and see. It can have effects for years.

Yes, it is called "learned helplessness" and I actually paid a psychologist to meet with school staff to explain this and create an action plan but nothing really changed. I spent over $400 for her to attend the meeting with the hopes that they would listen to her since they were not listening to me. I showed them a report that he did that started out very good and deteriorated over the days of the assisgnment. He did finsih but they gave him a 66 with no positive comments on the great work - only negative comments on the sloppy work at the end. Poor kid. I could write all the bad stuff for days.
We are really hoping that the smaller classes and specially trained teachers in the private school will help him. Better to leave the system than work with it sometimes.

''Better to leave the system than work with it sometimes. ''

Especially when they won't let you work with them. Leave the system, that's exactly what I did, best decision I ever made.

Hi Everyone,
I don't usually post in this group because I don't have much experience with Learning and Attention Difficulties, but I am constantly referring people here because I know how knowledgeable you all are on the subject. I also understand how important it is for parents who are having similar experiences to be able to offer support to one another and this group has impressed me time and time again by the outpouring of support that is consistently prevalent. Reading through this thread, I am saddened by some of the posts because I'm not seeing the support I usually do.
I think this forum provides a unique opportunity for parents and teachers to come together and discuss these problems from different perspectives and hopefully to provide insights to each other, things maybe you hadn't thought of. I mean there is so much information here-- so many different stories and ideas. We're here to learn from each other. Please remember to do so in a respectful manner, understanding that we're all experiencing the world differently.
If you like, we can start a private group to work out some of these differences, but the main forums are not the best place as it just takes time and energy away from the larger community. Please contact me if this is something you think would be beneficial to this group.

RRBTmom -- I think when you ask for an eval it is important to ask that they assess his processing & production. From what you are saying it sounds like he's learning the material, just having a hard time with producing & possibly processing. Is English his first language??? Do you or any family members speak any other languages FLUENTLY other than English in your home??? Another thing to consider is ADD, my younger brother had ADD he was quiet, well-mannered & obedient, and often overlooked -- ADHD is attention deficit HYPERactivity disorder, but children with ADD are sometimes quiet well mannered kids that just can't stay focused or as I like to think about it are focused on everything & struggle with focusing on the most important elements. I've had kids tell me (& my brother can confirm it) that they hear EVERYTHING, bugs walking on the ground, dripping faucets, AC/Heater blower -- all those things that most of us tune out -- they can't tune it out, my brother tells me now that when he took his meds everything got quieter & he could think & do what he needed to do.

Even though the first grade year is over, I think you should talk to the principal and let her know about the struggles your son went through last year and your expectations for second grade. I think the name calling by your son's teacher and friends was very inappropriate.

Hi,
My son went through the same thing. I sent a letter asking for this to stop and it did a little but still continued. I had a meeting with the teacher and the principal and the principal backed the teacher for doing this, claiming this is my son's motivation. At this point I did not continue pursuing as there was one month left for school and the principal was leaving and I had already hired a neuropsychololgist for another assessment of my son- as well as advocates to help me fight the school. I also had my son tested for Auditory Processing Disorder. It came back positive. His assessment with the neuropsychologist confirmed ADHD -Inattentive as well as an expressive writing learning disability. He will need a laptop and speech to text on it. This will help him process faster as well as an FM system to help his CAP issues. Not all audiologists are qualified to do the proper CAP testing. There are 5-7 tests I believe. Please find someone who is truly qualified. My test report was 11 pages long and will help my son get what he needs in school as well as the report from the neurologist. We will demand he not be held in at recess. It is law in Canada that they are not, check out your laws and see if it is legal for them to do this. Don't wait to have your son tested. I know it is scary and can be disheartening, but then you can move forward, get him what he needs, and help him improve his self esteem. The advocates I hired will help write up what my son needs from the school and then we will go forward with having them do it. If they give me any troubles, the advocates will step in. For me, I think they are a worthwhile investment as they have been there, done that and know how to work the system which will save me stress, time, and help my son faster. Once I get these things in place, then every year will just be updating.

I just want to say that (although, as an adult who sub'd for a while, I understand the motivation) this tactic is a HUGE mistake that I, personally, still feel bitter about.

I was one of those kids who didn't get my work done b/c I daydreamed... and so I missed recess... which led to more daydreaming. It basically made me miss opportunities to socialize independently as a child. I would be held in from recess so often that when I did get to go out I had no idea how to play with the other kids... and they didn't really want to play with me anyway. Eventually, I quit wanting to go out and I never learned to pay attention in class & do my work on time. I turned to books and drawing and daydreaming rather than be able to deal with the pressure (and often boredom) of classwork. I am not stupid; I was not in the gifted program (another bitterness I have) because I needed speech therapy and I "didn't behave" in class.

My daughter suffers many of the same problems I did. She is entering 3rd grade and we have just discovered the problem; she is brilliant (scored past 7th grade in all but 2 tests around the middle of 2nd grade) but she has Asperger's Syndrome. Being held from social situations like recess is a disaster to her future because she NEEDS the independent social interaction. She, like I did, has idealistic expectations and when things don't happen the way they "should" she becomes absorbed in working "why" out or she reacts strongly. She is also challenged to be able to communicate her thoughts because fine motor skills make handwriting 'difficult' and she needs to be able to move/take extra time/etc to get her verbal thoughts out or she has tics & 'meltdowns'. Because of getting her tested, she will have an IEP that will allow her to leave the room when she needs to, get the therapy/counseling/etc she needs, and we can negotiate how these challenging behaviors can be dealt with. The people who were making everything worse by pushing harder began to back off a little and work with her. Essentially,getting a diagnosis gives the us (mom, dad, and daughter) some authority to advocate for the support she needs. Now she gets less of the "punishment" that has backfired for too long. She is also being given ADHD meds to help with the focus so she can handle the frustration with out making outbursts.

School & home life has gotten so much more peaceful.

If your child is having difficulty demand in writing that he be tested. Catching these things EARLY is the key to future success. The gifted instructor gave me a book to read that I'd like to recommend to you:
***"Why Bright Kids Get Poor Grades: And What You Can Do About It" by Sylvia Rimm ***

Hi thisbattymom, wow you bring a new perspective to this issue. I'm so sorry that happened to you. Maybe the teachers who make kids stay in from recess doesn't think about it this way?? They certainly should.

Since your daughter has been tested, this does not guarantee that she will get an IEP. If she doesn't, there is more you can do.

They are to -- write and request 'prior written notice' on the schools refusal of IEP and write to district sped director and request 'an independent educational evaluation by public expense because I disagree with the districts evaluation.'

If you need to understand these, let me know.

If she does qualify and get an IEP, you can have written in it to NOT make her stay in from recess, and your story might help the school to agree to this. If they refuse, there's more you can do.

''because fine motor skills make handwriting 'difficult'''

If she gets IEP you can request help for fine motor skills and handwriting. Not just 'modifications and accomodations' like shorter assignments so she doesn't have to write so much, but actual HELP so she CAN write better.

''she will have an IEP that will allow her to leave the room when she needs to, get the therapy/counseling/etc she needs,''

If she does get the IEP, the things she needs help for and what the school does to help her HAS to be written into the IEP plan or the school doesn't have to do any of it. Make SURE the IEP plan states everything your daughter needs.

''The gifted instructor gave me a book to read that I'd like to recommend to you:
***"Why Bright Kids Get Poor Grades: And What You Can Do About It" by Sylvia Rimm ***

That is great, but just make sure THEY do something about it.

For handwriting (Dysgraphia) try the Alphasmart, or better yet, get one of those cheap Eee-pc's, HP has a cheap one, MSI Wind, ASUS also has one of the really cheap, lightweight, and very portable laptop computers that can help with word processing and taking notes.

I try to use Powerpoint presentations as much as I can because they are easily printed out and the student can concentrate on what I am saying and not have to worry about writing it all down. I also use a Smartboard in class as that gets the students' attention and I team that with WebQuests or PowerPoints and once again, I can print it all out so my students don't have to write nearly as much. However, I do have the students work on handwriting, but it is only during handwriting instruction, and only for a short period of time. So I don't ignore handwriting as they get extra practice, but they get the help of the "note hand outs" to help focus on the content.

Handwriting Without Tears is also a good program for handwriting issues. It is more manipulative than most programs students use arcs and ticks to "build" capital letters and a small wet sponge on a chalkboard style slate to create lowecase letters. Children with handwriting issues should focus their attention on uppercase letters as these letters are easier to visually discriminate -- one accommodation a teacher should make for this chils is to permit him/her to do everything into caps while the student is learning how to overcome the visual issues with writing lowercase letters.

I agree that teachers probably don't think of the social ramifications of keeping a kid in from recess. I think an occassional "withhold of recess" is acceptable, but if it is happening to the same kid often it isn't working to change the behavior and the teacher should look into finding help for that child. Generally, mising recess motivates the child that is not doing what they need to do, but if teachers find it isn't helping, they should not do it any longer. As I said in an earlier post, when a child is withheld form recess chronically the teacher needs to try a new approach, but that goes for anything a teacher uses to change behavior that is ineffective, ie notes, home, calls home, detention -- if it doesn't work try something else.

My son also missed recess a few times due to not finishing work or disrupting the class. He has ADHD and Visual Perception disorder. He would tell me other students would call him names but the teacher denied it. The teacher should've told you sooner, possibly at conferences. Does your son wear glasses or have a visual disorder?

I don't know the sitution in this teacher's particular situation, but I can attest that sometimes things kids say and do goes unnoticed. Kids are sneaky (especially girls) and very subtle about the intimidation tactics they use with their peers. I consider myself a good teacher, but I'm not naive enough to believe I see and address everything. It is sad that kids tease kids or intimidate, but somehow in our society belittling someone else to help us feel better about ourelves has become a chronic problem. Parents should insist that their kids be respectful of the differences they encounter, but many parents don't instill those values and those kid victimize your children & are also the same children who've figured out how to do it when the teacher won't notice it, partially because if they are caught they won't get in trouble at home. If you want to affect your school for change in this area -- you'll have to get parents to change what they do in the home. Teachers sometimes have hand in changing this, but often kids come to school already doing this.

RRBTmom, go into this upcoming school year w/an open mind. My dtr struggled in prek and the teacher was of the mind set that "we can't do something different for one child". This past year, in kindergarten, you would not believe the difference. Of course we changed from a traditional setting to a Montessori setting, but the teacher my dtr had was the most amazing teacher I've met. The difference between the two years has been like daylight and dark. Prek was a year of almost daily notes/phone calls telling us everything our child had done and that nothing the school does help, basically that our child was hopeless. The teacher threw her hands up and gave up on our child so we had to hire an advocate to help us. In Kindergarten, the teacher was willing to figure out what our child needed and provide it for her. My words fail me in being able to convey the difference between the two years but I just wanted to tell you not to loose faith. Over the summer, your child will grow and mature, and you never know just how much difference a teacher who loves her job and who is willing to reach your child where ever they are can make. I hope that your child gets one of these teachers this coming school year.

Why is it we read countless articles about the importance of recess as a break from the structured day, some much needed physical exercise, and just plain "being a kid" time, and then we have teachers who deny a child this important part of the day because that teacher is obviously too inept to assist this child in getting his work done, or at the very least, including the parent as a possible source for assisting. This makes my blood boil when I hear about this. Yes, you should have expected the teacher to tell you this. My advice is to now discuss this with the teacher and let her know that missing recess 90% of the time is punishment, NOT positive reinforcement or even showing any tangible proof that her denying him recess is having any noticeable change in his ability to finish his work....well duh! It's also unacceptable if she is not intervening when other children call him a slowpoke. How would she like it if, in front of all her students you called her "inept".....that's right....it would not be appropriate, case close.

RRBTMOM-That makes me sad that your son loses recess time. I feel the teacher should have sent you a note, or called. You know your child better than the teacher does. I wish you the best and your child.

The teacher should not allow other children to call him names and surely should not be doing this herself. This makes me so sad. The 1st grade is still about adjustment. I'm sure at this point your child probably had anxiety about getting done in time which does not help at all. Is she really doing her job by putting your son down. She should be building self esteem and I would not take this lightly. I would definitely talk to her as soon as possible and let her know how this hurts him. The name calling gets me more that not having recess. My son is 5 and started school this year and I know they look forward to going out and playing. I don't think this is fair. He is having trouble or he would not be behind 90% of the time and she should be working with you to HELP HIM NOT HURT HIM....

I would be throwing a FIT! First off, I would have the teachers job for calling my child names. Second of all, children with attention and/or focusing issues really need the breaktime that recess provides. It is a way to let out the built up energy of sitting all day. If I were you, I would raise hell at that school. Do not sit by while your child is excluded and punished for starting out slowly.

Aside from the obvious issues that punishing a child for something they can't help is cruel and futile, where is the adult reasoning? Every child is different. If you try something to motivate or discipline and it is ineffective, you change your approach until you find the thing that effectively motivates the child to do what you need them to do and you find out why they are having the problem. You can't really do much about a problem or behavior until you understand where it is rooted.

I definately think you should have been told this was a problem...you can't help if you don't know what is happening and no one knows your child better than you do.

This initial post was in May and it is now October. I'd be interested to know what the resolution to the problem was and how your son is doing this year.

My son was kept from PE - to which my response was Isn't PE a required course? And after I removed him from this school he told me the teacher called him lazy and poked fun when she saw him take a nap while we went out (he was a first grader). All this because he struggled with reading. DO NOT LET THIS GO BY! You should meet with the teacher and principle to see why he is being kept in for recess and why the teacher sets such a miserable example in calling your son a "slow poke". Also make sure the teacher is aware that you will find out, not by your son but others if this behavior continues.

I spoke with teachers about his schooling and my observations, my son requested Special Ed testing because he was struggling (a 1st grader who you couldn't get one word out of him). Not one of these teachers noticed what I did. I was later told about an optometrist (who does eye training-you could look under eye tracking) and when I took my son, with only having him following his pencil and having him write his name he told me that he had an eye tracking problem. Not only this, he told me what I had been telling his teachers for the last the years (who said he did not do these). All they knew was that I was going in for an eye exam. He referred him out for eye training (what a difference). There are many different eye problems which lead to learning disabilities try this website: optometrist.org and you can read many stories and get a referral is this is his case.

I sure hope things are better, unfortunately my son was 10 and had gone through a lot of self-esteem issues because of the ignorance of educators and our government on learning diability issues or indiffereance thereof.

So your kid had an eye tracking problem and as a responsible parent you took him to the eye doctor. Somehow I find that on this sight we expct teachers to be the CURE all for all that ails America's children -- we are not doctors or psychologists - we are not psycho therapists and although speech and occupational therapy services exist in school systems we are not specialized in those areas to service children in need and in order to attempt to get these services for kids there are hoops to be jumped through and barriers to be blown through in order to get the services.

We keep kids in at recess -- because most kids "get busy" and get their work done, but I agree if a kid is consistently staying in at recess a teacher needs to look at other possibilities for why the child isn't getting his or her work done -- on the topic of teasing -- if the teacher is vocalizing her impressions then she's set the standarard and it is very wrong of her to do this, but on the other hand, parents sometimes put teachers in desperate situations -- we talk to parents and still nothing happens for example I had a very animated conversation with a parent about filling out a reading log which reads I read with _______________ for 5 minutes. We read _________________________. Parent signature _______________________ I actually had a parent tell me she didn't understand what was expected and never once has she come to me to ask for clarification but the other 25 families understood what to do???? I'm confused. If she really cared wouldn't she com talk to the teacher????

i do not have time to read all 105 replies so this may have been addressed.

i was special education teacher for ten years. i taught in a self-contained special ed class room. some parents wanted their kids included in the reg. ed classroom. i would do my best to fight against this because i believe it is better for children with special needs to be taught by the teachers who do know what adhd add and learning disabilities are...

whenever a child was mainstreamed it was one problem after another. there were incidents where a child would cling to there special education teachers leg because they did not want to go to their main streamed class.

in the reg education class the teacher and the children would make fun of them.

one parent in particular was pushing for mainstreaming and she wanted an IEP conference and she wanted the reg. education teacher there.

well she saw the attitude of the reg. ed teacher and dropped the idea. after the conference she asked me if threre were any teachers who would be accommodating to her child in future years.

the answer was no.

in the reg ed teachers defense. they have a lot on their plates and trying to accommodate special needs children in their class is tough.
(this is no excuse for name calling like slow polk)

in my school the gym teacher was very accommodating to students with special needs.

so all the special ed teachers would put their kids in his reg ed gym class. then he got overwhelmed with the amount of children in his classes. the school also had gym just for the special ed children.

so that is my opinion on inclusion.