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September 19, 2008

Men with Normal Wives, as opposed to 'Domineering' Ones

I just read an opinion piece offering advice on how to deal with domineering wives on this website. I'm not going to list names or the post title, but I'm sure if you did a search for 'domineering', you'd find it in the advice section. Needless to say, I felt compelled to offer some secondary advice before any man completely followed that post.

First of all, just to be clear to any man that has been married more than a year, your wife can reasonably expect to win 75% of all arguements/discussions/whatever and that is completely FAIR. Her behavior as such can not be construed as domineering, she is exactly like 90% of the rest of the women in this world. Her behavior is the norm, and the quiet and mild soul you imagine is the lottery in this today's marraiges. We all get tickets that say they could be that jackpot, but most of us are in love with the woman that we have (yes, I did rewrite that last sentence on the off chance that my wife reads this before I die).

Why do I say it is fair? Because we guys, and let's be honest, really don't care about 75% of the stuff they bring up anyway. She may ask you what color you want the walls, so you give her your answer (she did ask). She is not pleased with the answer you chose (who says you get to pick colors she doesn't like?). An arguement/discussion/debate ensues. Before you go off the lone road of why that is the color you like (yes, you have chosen it faithfully ever since kindergarten), ask yourself, do I really care what color the walls are? If you can learn to detach your emotion (and we men can be experts at detached emotions, or so I've been told hundreds of times by my wife) you can recognize the question for what it is. She just wants your interest in having the conversation. Unless you can't absolutely give her your attention, then just show interest in the conversation.

Now don't get me wrong, we men have just as much emotion as our female counterparts, even if we spend an inordinate amount of time trying NOT to access that emotion. It is still there, all bottled up, nonetheless. Accessing that emotion is akin to Bruce Banner inviting the Hulk to come out to play, not something that most men do consciously. If you really feel strongly about something, then it falls into the other 25% of the arguements/discussions you will have with your wife. What do you do now? How do you respond? Well let's look at that earlier example of the wall color again:

Honey: "What color do you think we should paint the walls?"

You: "White" (yeah, we are that predictable)

The same answer again, for a guy that really wants to push his opinion on the subject.

You: "Are you asking me because you want to know, or did you already have something in mind? I have an idea that I really want to share with you, but I want to hear what you think about it first." She responds, then you give your answer - White (as usual)

As your wife, it is hardwired into her to love you at some level. By posing your answer that way she has to ask herself, "He just said he's interested in something about me, so now which is more important, having my say or listening to whatever he is going to say next?" Handy, isn't it? The beauty of it is that nowhere in that statement did I reference what I was talking about. You can use that statement for 99.999% of the questions your wife asks you (Do I look fat in XYZ has to be answered with an immediate 'NO'. Try to atleast look up when you say it with no hesitation). But you don't need it for 99.999% of the questions, you only need it for the 25% you really want to have an impact with your opinion. Don't use if for "What should we make the kids for lunch?" when you know you were going to give them whatever was the first thing that fell out of the cupboard when you opened it. Only use it when you really care about the result of that answer.

Back to my original point of bringing up this advice, the gentlemen who had originally posted about domineering wives gave some specific actions for men to take. I'm adding my own in response:

If your wife doesn't let you win any arguements, don't just wait for divorce. Discuss things with her, you bring up the discussion. It is completely ok to say, "This type of (whatever) makes me FEEL like we are already divorced." Notice that the word that needs most emphasis is FEEL, and be careful that you don't say 'feel like we should get' . But just using the word 'feel' when describing yourself should get her attention.
If she won't listen to your feelings, then seek outside help. Get mediators, counselors, therapists, whatever it takes to have those discussions. Don't be afraid of the costs. Check out your local college or university. Many of them have board certified, with degrees out the whazoo, psychologists/psychiatrists who oversee students working on their graduate degrees who would be happy to provide marraige counseling for pennies on the dollar.
Do not just imagine that you can 'tough' it out in a bad marraige. You and your wife as adults will just put up a walls to avoid all the poisonous, noxious attitude that is in that relationship. Unfortunately, your children don't have that protective kind of defense and will be subjected to that until they grow up to adulthood. You don't want kids growing up on that kind of diet. Get moving on resolving it!
A divorce when your child is 18 or 24 is just as painful as one when they are 3, don't imagine differently.
With all the caustic feelings you may be seeing in your relationship, if you can't have two people feeling bliss, then atleast one person should be in a better mood to lighten things for the family. If at all possible, make that person your spouse (yeah, it sounds counterintuitive). The more you can make them them feel loved (women) or appreciated (men) the better chance you have that they will eventually begin to respond in kind. Even if they don't, you will feel better for doing the right thing and your children will see and example of what true loyalty is.
Work on making yourself a better spouse in all kinds of ways. In the very least, you will be a better person if the inevitable happens. At the very most, you will begin to be a solution to some of the problems that your family has which will alleviate some of your stress.

I hope this helps some husbands (and their wives) to see a little more eye-to-eye on the subject, or atleast broach the issue for further discussion. If nothing else, I'm always willing to help.

Parent Comments on "Men with Normal Wives, as opposed to 'Domineering' Ones"

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When we were first married, and I'd ask my husband's opinion or we'd disagree, I'd get my way most of the time (I can't say with absolute percentages like blacklion does). When I finally asked why, he said simply, "when I care about something, I promise to let you know." That statement woke me up to realize that when he did interject it was time to weigh it seriously.

And I nominate this Advice as GreatSchools hall of fame material :)

Great insights balaclion!

Argument does not work most of the time and it takes time and energy.
I believe people in a relationship should be able to give, take, win and lose in most situations.

It is very sad that many people are getting divorce or creating an unhealthy marriage because of minor things like birthday presents, choice of children's pre-school, forgotten anniversary date, or who did not clean this and that. Why not buy birthday present for yourself and hire someone to clean the house weekly or share ideas/facts in making very important decision.

For almost two decades of marriage (first marriage for both of us), we have a lot discussion and rarely argument. We are husband and wife, but function as an individual with a great support for each other. My spouse is Conservative and I a m L??? He is Catholic and I am Pentecostal. Make your conclusion.

Thanks again for the thoughtful advise!

Thank you for the vote of confidence in my advice. If you know of anyone else who may be interested or can benefit from it, please pass it along to them or send them a link. Thanks again for the compliment!

How would you rate yourself to see if you are a domineering wife. just curious?

Maggie-

Ooooh, that is such a sneaky question. Any answer I directly give to that would automatically be wrong. In a round about way though I think I could answer it. First I have to break down your question into 2 parts to show how to answer it.

You use the phrase 'domineering wife', which by default means that you're married, to someone who is not me. That man (in a traditional setting) is the first half of the equation. So now your question essentially should be, "How would I rate myself to see if I'm a domineering wife to my spouse?" It doesn't matter what I, the writer of this post, thinks is domineering. It's more important what your spouse thinks is domineering. That really clarifies it. It is almost like an algebra equation now: Actions you take that could be negative divided by Attitude your spouse takes that could be positive = Domineering.

I'll explain it like this. The more things that your husband would/could think of as being negative the closer you move to being considered domineering. The more your spouse works to have an attitude of overlooking/forgiving those same negatives, the further you move from being considered domineering. Looking at it that way sometimes you may be tempted to think, "Well, he can just change his attitude and that will keep me from being domineering." That thought alone, is a very negative decision that moves you closer to the outcome you don't want.

Since it is futile to think you can control 100% of someone else's actions, let alone their thoughts, it would be more beneficial to work on the part you can control, YOU. By focusing on avoiding as many of the things your spouse may consider as 'negatives', and really looking for ways to lessen the rest, you will be doing alot to squash the 'domineering' label. And as I mentioned, they can do their part to realize that you are probably not doing those things in a direct way to be nasty, but out of love and a desire to make things better for the family.

How can you know what actions your spouse considers as negative? The only way to find out is to ask. Don't try to find out the why, just the what. Every person is a combination of different experiences and hence has a different view of what they considers a pushy woman. I've seen guys who seem to like being led around as a trophy pup, but the moment their wife offers a valid point on investing, they freak out. I've seen others who hand over their paycheck dutifully every week, but don't let their wife talk over them when other men are around. Mind you, I don't agree or condone these behaviour, but I can recognize WHAT those husbands perceive as a negative/domineering action from their wives.

Once you know WHAT (again, save the why for another conversation) your spouse doesn't like, you have to decide if you can or will refrain from doing those things. Here again, I have to show my old-fashioned streak, and speak my opinion. As long as what your spouse asks is not illegal or dangerous, then you should do it, or atleast consider it and give it a trial run. No person, man or woman, can expect to be in a relationship where it is entirely perfect for them. The world is not perfect and as such we are guaranteed that our relationships will match that dynamic. If you run away from a marriage because you have to refrain from doing things your spouse doesn't like, then what? All relationships will require that you give up some aspects of yourself for your mate. It is no use running to a fantasy that doesn't exist. You only create distrust in yourself and unreachable expectations for anyone you meet in the future.

I hope that answers your question (and that I didn't sound like a pompous idiot).

blacklion, thanks very good way to put that long and complex answer but I do appreciate it!

Man did I dive into the cold water with your number 5 !!!

(if you can't have two people feeling bliss, then at least one person should be in a better mood to lighten things for the family.

If at all possible, make that person your SPOUSE )

Blacklion, YOU woke me up!

I am Mr. Happy... Today is Friday and I even invited the wife to go with the kids and me to the park.

She said no.
(I already know she hates the park, but I keep trying to do something as a family. I found her later watching tv and eating popcorn.)

The kids and I had plenty of fun!

I have been married 19 years and have found 2 important equations are helpful in a happy marriage: for men RESPECT + INTIMACY = LOVE; for women LOVE + COMPANIONSHIP = LOVE; Bottom line -- our ideas on how we equate love are different for each gender. Once you understand it, work with it. We can start by not mocking our differences and learning to embrace them and use them to our advantage! One great way to begin is to write letters to advertising agencies who "DIS the DAD" in the commercials and Ads. God forbid we make fun of women or handicapped on TV -- why do we allow it to happen to all of our great dads? Is it really domineering women or that we are allowing society to lead us down a path?

If you know your wife hates the park why keep asking? Ask to do something you know she will like.

I disagree. I think TV shows are usually portraying the dad as the "poor guy, his wife died/ditched him and the kids etc", i.e. Hannah Montana, Full House. But if you have a single mom it's because she left the kids perfectly functional dad, i.e. Suite Life.

Feelings get hurt when imprtnt dates are forgotten by one part of the team. Buying yourself a present doesn't make up for that when you want to feel special from spousal attention.

Read the post again -- I was referring to ads and commercials, not the Disney shows.

CheerMom27 & Tacketta-

I will try to respond to all the comments here. As far as men taking women out into the woods for fun, there are two sides to the coin. If the purpose of going out is to spend quality time with the wife, then an occasional walk in the park is fine. If you know she would like other things then you MUST include those types of activities as well. That is if the purpose of the event is to spend quality time with your wife. In his example though, I think his main concern was 'getting his family outdoors.' This is a universal desire that is commonplace among men. Most women hate camping, so why do so many husbands feel the need to bring their family to the woods? Label it our 'call of the wild'. Most men want to do things outdoors. We want to share that excitement that we feel about nature with our families because we want them to be as happy as us when we are outdoors. I'm guilty of forcing my family to go on camping trips in Central Park, upstate NY, etc. I've tried to expose them to as many different kinds of outdoor activites that you can do in nature (deep sea fishing, hiking, climbing trees, etc.) I want them to be a happy as I am when I am near a tree. The important thing to remember though is that I don't confuse spending time like that as the BEST, and ONLY quality time I can spend with my wife. I have to also do things she likes.

As far as TV's portrayal of fathers goes, I think all programming is skewed. Commercials and Ads do make dads or husbands look like idiots. Why? Because if you even see a father in the commercial, obviously that ad is not targeting men. If the company was looking to interest men, they use SEX ("This woman looks good, buy this and you could be closer to a woman like this"), not images of SMART dads. By using images of foolish dads, they target a different consumer. These ads say, "These dads are stupid, you -their spouse- are the smart one. So smart, you need to buy our product." TV shows are much the same way. While Disney does tend to make everything sweet and rosy, the reality is that in Suite Life, their dad is pretty non-existant. The writer make Zack and Cody seem to be just fine with this, but reality is that they have an absentee father who rarely checks in on his kids. That fact is not to Disney-friendly, so you won't see them play that out too much on TV. You have to look at the target market of the TV channel. Disney parents are always 'great', no matter what the reality of the situation is. Lifetime and Oxygen seem to be mostly populated by women who only choose abusive or crazed boyfriends (whom they later get revenge on). Spike TV has overly sexual women who offer no resistance to men. Each channel caters to its audience.

As far as the gift comment, 1seremon will have to explain themself on that.

I think people in a relationship should keep their priority straight. Many men I know are not very good in remembering "gifts" or dates, but they love and value their spouse and people. These men were raised by independent strong women and loving men.

My husband forgets her mother's birthday often, but always remember to call her every Sunday and sent money to her every month. Son and mother know they love and value each other.

My children remind my husband of my birthday, but he always remember to share a kiss with me before living the house. Importantly, he always remember to drop or pick up the children from school.

More money! My spouse makes almost ninth times the money I am making, so he can get away with more money than my self. That is, common sense and the way I look at it. This is one of the reasons many women are more likely to live in poverty when there is a divorce.

As one member said, " cup is half full or half empty" choose one! I enjoy cup is half full. This website is great, it gives everyone something to think about!

Thanks again for sharing!

Sounds like you just want her to speak her mind. Be direct. Instead of what do you think, perhaps, this is what I think, do you have a problem with it? LOL

Makes sense to me. I live in a marriage where we have the opposite problems. My husband is more like a "wife" and I am more like the "husband" in temperament, and personality, etc.

Interesting comments.

LOL!!! Oh, please ... I know I'm going to be sorry I asked, but I just can't help myself ... can someone tell me what defines a "normal" wife? The only thing I've found somewhat "normal" about wives in my age group (over 40) is that most of us are convinced we would never marry again! ; )

OK!

Wow, I loved this! After a hard 20 year marriage, I decided to get educated on relationships so I had a better shot at being happy with someone else. The most important part was seeing what I did wrong, and what the healthy way to handle things was...I'm remarried, and we still mess up, but at least know when we're messing up and can try to change it.

I will have to give this some real thought.

My first thought is that when men think and label a woman as domineering, it usually is another way of saying, "I want to control this person." It isn't about making things fair but about tipping the scales in his favor.

It also made me think of the "If a man, if a woman" type chain letters you see floating around. If a man does something a certain way, it will be attributed to healthy expression of the self whereas if a woman does it, she is BEING something and it is usually not a positive label.

RedFrog-

I'm surprised that this piece made you feel that way. While I did bring up the difference in what is acceptable in behavior between the genders in marraige, my leaning was more to say that women should have more latitude than men. As I mentioned at the outset, I wrote this piece because of what I read from another husband about his wife and what he called domineering. As a husband myself, I took offense to the attitude behind it.
In either case, there are still many levels of inequality in the world and marraiges in general. While I have my own personal views of when and how that will be resolved, until it has been resolved we all have to do our part to help the movement along. One drop can make a wave in the ocean. I'm hoping that encouraging other husbands like myself to review their own attitudes about their spouse and 'picking their battles' can be that first step, that one drop that starts to make a difference in their family's happiness.

It's interesting that when women offer an opinion on any topic, that it will be identified as "feeling" rather than a belief. It's a habit that is hard for some to break.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege

I do agree with your advice that if someone (male or female) does not feel they are being treated fairly in a relationship and have exhausted their own personal, mental resources, they should seek outside help. However, I am still left to wonder why women should be "given more latitude" as if there is some innate inability to achieve the same level of reasoning as a male counterparts. The approach is almost as if women need to be handled like children with undeveloped interpersonal skills. I am keeping in mind that your post was a response to a specific post made by another person and yet, I see the advice as condescending to women.

For what it's worth, I've worked with many people in various aspects of my life and the people who have reacted emotionally to standard evaluations have been male. It was a huge surprise to me considering the popular and often stated belief that men are much more adept at detaching their emotions. :)

RedFrog-

Thank you for that last reply. The first paragraph gave me such a good laugh (in a good way), I almost wondered whether or not to respond. Please believe me, I wasn't using the word 'feeling' in deference to you being a woman. I would have said that I was surprised that it made you 'feel' that way if you were a man as well. That simply was the appropriate word for the idea that I was trying to convey, that I was surprised that my comments had gotten that reaction out of you - whether you be male or female. I read the wikipedia piece and agreed with some pieces and disagreed with others. I don't take it as fact because simply, it is not. Wikipedia by definition is a collection of everyone's musing on a subject, and as such is subject to contain as much misinformation as factual data. I could go online right now and add my own 2 cents to the same wiki page, but that would not make it a fact. Some of the better ones may have administrator that actively work to maintain the integrity of the data, but none of them are 100% factual.

My comment that women should be given more 'latitude' was not to say that women are in any way less able to cope mentally with issues. My comment was more to push that since we, either male or female, have no more control over what our partner does than we do the wind it would be better to focus on what we do have direct control over - ourselves. Generally, most men are not interested in the same things as their female counterparts. My wife can explain to me countless ways to match handbags and shoes, but am I going to be interested? Not really. Instead of letting that become and issue for contention, I say that it can be an issue for CONNECTION. Why not let my wife tell me anyway about handbags? Is it really so important that I make sure she knows I don't care about the subject? While I'm sure she could handle me telling her that, what would it do for our relationship? Make it better or make it worse?
Now, while my original post was initially directed at men, the last half was directed at both sexes. Both partners can focus on being better mates for their spouse rather than fixing the problems that their spouse has. It is always easier to point out our mate's problems than to look at our own faults. My comments gave more focus to men because I am one. I feel I know men well, having lived in the body of one all my life. I directed my comments to men because I feel I know some specific areas that it would be easy for men to make changes to better the relationship's we have with our spouses.

Hi, blacklion and All - I do find this discussion interesting. My earlier post was a stab at lightening it up with a little humor. Naturally, my brand of humor isn't everyone's cup of tea ; ). But as a 45-year-old woman who's spent my entire adult life in "non-traditional" roles as a woman, and having been married more than once, I feel I've had plenty of opportunities to view both sides of the coin (at least from a female perspective). In the end, I've found that when all other forms of communication fail, a liberal application of humor and acceptance for our own human failings (as well as those of our opposite-gender counterparts) can often ease us through misunderstandings.

From my perspective, in Western society, gender-based roles have changed as much as they've stayed the same. While we have scratched the surface appearance of role changes, we have a long way to go with evolving our underlying cultural influences to accept the outward changes. It is a difficult adjustment process, for both genders, to take on historically non-traditional career and family roles. In my case, I'm the bread-winner of the family, and my husband is a stay-at-home dad. Also, I've worked in the male-dominated IT profession for the past 23 years, after serving my country as an enlisted member of the Air Force, during a time when it was still not very common to see women in the military.

I seem to have encountered many of the pitfalls of "blazing trails" as a woman. When I was in the military, I was subject to a very typical view that women in the military were either lesbians or looking for a husband (or something "else" was drastically wrong with us ...). As a career IT professional, I have encountered situations where I have been discriminated against because of my gender: I've been sexually harassed by peers and managers, passed over for promotion, paid less for the same work, bullied by over-bearing male managers, undermined by competitive female co-workers and managers ... challenged for my level of competence vs. my male counterparts ... you name it, I've experienced it.

I've also had several failed marriages, due in no small part to lack of acceptance from traditional in-laws who feel threatened by my outspokeness, strength of character, and/or non-traditional role as a wife and mother. And while that "should" have no bearing on what transpires between a husband and wife, if a husband's relatives disapprove of the wife, it makes the inevitable ups and downs of marriage that much more difficult to deal with and overcome. Family support really is very important.

So here's my take: paraphrasing a quote from Abraham Lincoln, "Whatever you are, be a good one". Marriage is a partnership and friendship that must remain flexible, fluid, and open to communication. We are all human beings (well, MOST of us anyway ... lol), subject to human failings, emotional upsets, changes of heart, and changes in life purpose. For married partners to survive the years intact, it's very important for both a man and a woman to view one another and themselves as uniquely talented, inheritantly flawed, but still very important and special people, each with their own gifts to offer and own needs to address, as well as recognizing the other's needs. Total self-sacrifice is no healthier than total selfishness. Balance is key. And remember to have a sense of reality, sense of self, and ESPECIALLY and sense of humor!

Signed, Dear Gabby ; )

AdvocacyMom:
Agree! All the topics you discussed make sense to all aspects of women's life.

My grandmother was hated by almost everyone because she made a lot of money and she kept her name. My mother had a very few friends because she made more money and raised seven children. In- laws called her names, but my father protected her and they stayed together until my father passed away. Today, most people in the community continue to trust, respect, and admire my mother's motherhood and womanhood.

My mother- in- law learned her lesson quickly and left us alone. Thank God, her loving son calls her weekly and send money monthly. She confessed that her in- law gave her "hell" because she dated her husband before marriage. In the 1960s arranged marriages were common in my country.
My father -in- law is great. Both of us like politics and soccer.

I am used to my personality. I am a mixture of male and female and this bother a lot of people, but it gives me joy

Great insights!

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