I concur that the education system in the U.S. needs a greater degree of nationalization...It irks me that NCLB is supposed to make sure "no child is left behind," but we can't even accurately measure where they are to start with. Individual states are allowed to use their own tests, and set their own curriculum standards, instead of utilizing national norms. Here's but one example, of a site that shows State NCLB testing comparisons to NEAP, which is a national measure: www.time.com/nochild

I had to comment on the observation that, "Our higher education institutions continue to churn out mediocre prepared "teachers" ... "
I used to teach physics and astronomy at the college level. My courses weren't that hard, I had a couple of 6th graders get through them with high grades. However, I was not "easy", and not opposed to flunking students who did not demonstrate that they understood the material; most of my students were education majors. It was carefully explained to me by senior administration that the education program was the largest on campus, and that if I could not adjust my expectations such that they could pass my courses, that I would not successful there.
Now I had previously taught at a school that gave college credit for what I thought was 1st-2nd grade material (concepts of volume, density, and mass - and I don't mean the philosophical interpretation), but I was not willing to go there. I figure a teacher should be at least as able as the best student in their grade-level, and I would not pass prospective middle school teachers who could not demonstrate competency in a class that 6th grade students could get an A in.
I was eventually forced out of teaching over this issue, and went back to engineering. But that may help explain the preparation of our"teachers". As long as somebody pays the tuition, it is the responsibility of higher education to keep them happy. So we get elementary teachers who are terrified of math, totally inept at science, but love playing with kids. And we wonder why the next generation doesn't do well in math and science.

I lived in Finland for a year during the late 90's. To call this an apples to oranges comparison would be the understatement of the year. The country is small, completely homogeneous and fairly prosperous. You might as well compare the whole US to Waterbury, CT.

Is there any hope for a National Board of Education while eliminating all state and district control? My heart tells me we MUST eliminate about 90% of those holding administrative positions and stop relying on the excuse of the USA not being a homogeneous society. Think of the funds that could be spent in the classroom. Not being a member of a community raised in another culture, I can be impatient but I do believe the world can learn to live in the USA, one must be prepared to cope in the public arena first. Has anyone else noticed the only group who resists is the one that was forced to come here as slaves? An overwhelming majority of those arriving during the past 100 years have been made to feel inferior at times. Expect little and little will be shown! Individual cultures must be held responsible for integrating newer arrivals, especially when it comes to learning the American English language. Please, share your thoughts and build on mine.

Amen. Loved your comments. Interesting findings regarding Finland. I've had those thoughts and concerns for a very long time, you've put them into words perfectly.

Thank you, MommaCat!

If we can round up enough people who agree it might be possible to begin a movement.

Wow! Thanks for the great post.

This cleared up my confusion regarding why a good number of teachers just cannot teach, especially at high-school level.

Finnish schools actually have to compete for students. So if a school isn't doing their job, they lose students and funding, which is attached to each child. The good schools get more students, and funding, and the bad schools get less. So they have to step up and compete, or they "go out of business." And they also don't have a teacher's union, which protects bad teachers here in the U.S. And our children are the ones who are suffering.

The children are older and more mature when they go to school in Finland. I wish they would postpone the starting age with one more year - to 8. Also Finns do not know the concept of expelling students from schools. If a child misbehaves, he/she will do extra hours. In the US kids are at the streets when they'll get expelled, join gangs etc. and stay even more behind in education. Eventually they'll become parents, who do not know how to encourage their children to perform better. The crime rate increases and difference between rich and poor gets bigger.

It is not true what is said here about home work. In Finland they get quite a bit of it. I used to spend 2-3 hours every evening doing home work. They typically study at least three foreign languages; four if they don't choose additional math and science classes. They also study Finnish, history, geography, biology, cooking, sewing/machinery, gymnastics, social sciences, typing, psychology, music, drawing, religion/ethics, chemistry, physics. I might have forgotten some.

Regarding the unions: I used to be a teacher in Finland and a proud member of a union. Practically every teacher belongs to a union and it is not a bad thing at all.

Finland has closed captioning during most of their tv programming. I think this has a huge effect on the reading levels of children. They see the words as the words are said and it's very natural for them to learn to read. Wouldn't it be great to do this here?!

WHY is it that EVERYONE skirts the issue of the ESL teaching Americans schools must provide due to the number of foreign (many, many illegal!) students in our schools??? This is a huge factor in the pace at which a classroom/school can proceed because of the "No Child Left Behind" edict. There are many intelligent American kids who are left twiddling their thumbs in American classrooms because the pace of learning must accommodate non-English speakers. This is a corrosion of our school system. In California, over 50% of the kids in the classrooms are hispanic, and many of them are just learning English. Why is this MAJOR issue never addressed in American test scores or placement of American students on national/international scales? It is HUGE. I'd like to know what percentage of non-Finn speaking students the Finnish school system has to deal with. My guess is very few.

Spot on. If the students can't pass the test, we "dumb-down" the tests until they can. Talk about a watering down of education, expectation, and morals! As long as institutions are monetarily funded by passing students,this will be their MO.

I think in the USA we have too much testing of kids, especially in math. We do not give kids enough time for ideas to sink in before we start testing them. I have an 11th grader (in Mission San Jose High in Fremont, CA) who has taken honors math from seventh grade. Recently her teacher covered conic section in polar form in 2 weeks. There were 2 quizzes and a chapter final during that time, Kids just prepare for test and do not assimilate as much as we would ideally want..

Finland has been ahead of the pack in educating their children and citizens for a very long time. Having taught in an elementary school in Finland, it is not surprising that we are just now hearing of their success. In central Finland, kids in grades 4-5 were already learning a third and/or fourth language, having had Finish and Swedish side-by-side since Kindergarten. I noticed that the children did not demonstrate the pressures that kids in the US show during a normal school day. Their school buildings were modern, lit with natural light throughout, ultra clean, and functional; unlike our many dilapidated school buildings. Teachers worked in teams, and calm instruction is normal in a routine day. Education is a given, a gift, and families are involved implicitly. Education is central to their success as a country. Many models should be taken from this great nation but, first we need to look at ourselves and the ways in which we battle amongst each other. We have much to learn from the gentleness of the Finnish ways.

I am ready. My sleeves are rolled up. I am ready to support a big change in education for the better. I could not agree more with you comments!!

To the parent who commented on the ESL issue, I could not have said it better myself. You are absolutely correct, children in our country are forced to sit and learn in classes that accomodate the non-English speakers. Why is this country going out of its way to aid and support people who are here illegally?? I am not against immigration, I am against ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION! I am a child of immigrant parents but when my parents first came to this country fifty years ago, they had to be sponsored by a relative already living here and they had to assimilate. This did not mean abandoning their roots; it meant embracing their new home and culture by respecting the laws of their new country. Unfortunately, this is not the case today. People come into this country, illegally, and expect hand-outs!! This,of course, includes educating their children in our school system. It's about time that this country begins to take care of and support it's law-abiding,legal citizens first! I'm sorry that I ranted on about illegal immigration but this topic has enraged me for quite some time and even more so now that my daughter is in school. The elementary school that we are zoned for has a high percentage of non-English speaking students. I did not want her sitting in these classrooms that accomodate, not her, but the others!! I enrolled her in a private Lutheran school which we are very happy with but it is a struggle paying the tuition. The area we live in really is "a melting pot of the world" with many wonderful people and cultures. But we all have to remember that we live in the U.S.A. and must assimilate someway, somehow and live by and respect the laws of this great country. Again, I applaud the parent who brought this topic to the surface and told the truth!

I agree we in America have learned to teach kids how to test rather than teach then the materials right the first time. Kids are just like sponges. They absorb everything starting at a very young age. Therefore, there should be less testing and more observing.
Monica Camp (Atlanta, Georgia)

Well said...I agree and have been asking myself the same question "why do we bend over backwards to accomodate and appease immigrants?" and at the expense of our own children and culture!! I guess i'm not the only one who wonders. Our gov't/system makes it too easy and gives too many handouts to non-citizens and we American citizens are paying the price in so many ways.

I'll shoot from the hip somewhat on this one. I suspect there's alot less garbage on TV there, though I'm not sure how tightly controlled "video" games are or whether the Finns control crap outlets like UTube and MySpace. I also supect the Finns as a general rule are more involved in their kids' lives and don't dump their responsibilities upon schools/teachers. I'd like to know how Finnish teachers keep the GT kids occupied without any GT classes. My last comment/question is whether as a certfied Tx teacher (EC-4 Generalist) with a Master's degree in ED. I'm considered mediocre in qualifications? I had theory and student teaching, though I'd liked to have had more S.T. time. Sure I have only a tiny amount of time as a sub teacher, so it seems to me that the school districts are holding me back, and want me to be super qualified,i.e. spec ed, ESL and grade 4-8 qualified as well before "they" will give me a shot. The school district of my dreams won't hire me until I get "experience" , so I'm hoping a charter school will.

I don't believe that for any reason one child is smarter than another.
The whole concept of I.Q is out dated.
Education is all about incentive,support in all ways for the child by parents and the education system and equal rights to all facilities.

MrBill, for those of us who are not teachers, I do not understand what all of your abbreviations mean and I doubt you are poorly trained or mediocre.

It is my understanding that Finland offers everyone free education for each student in their chosen field for as long as they continue to progress. BUT THAT IS SOCIALISM I CAN HEAR SOME OF YOU SCREAMING. So what? If that is what it takes. If anyone out there knows for a fact this is not true, please tell me now.

I've answered my own question about public schools in Finland by simply going to Google and entering PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN FINLAND and pressing SEARCH. I suggest that everyone out there try it.

I have attended lectures by some people that are engaged in trying to' help' improve our education system. I taught and wore many hats in an Inupiat village for over 10 years, and in the states for 5 years and at a University.
The odd thing to me is that when we are in these discussions, and lectures everyone talks about how we use to be rated here, and now we are there. We hear much and keep trying to fix something I don't really think 'was' broken.
Why do we completely forget about our local infrastructure, and attempt to force students to stay in classrooms they don't want to be in? 18, 19 year olds sitting in classes for remedial reading - reading things they have no interest in? (ALL of the shop programs - which include lots of reading, and math - have been dropped for story telling reading to teach students who will probably take some trade school classes or attend C.C. classes but won't ever try to apply to go to a 4 year college.)
What are we doing and what are we looking at to define our objectives? Wasn't it Thomas Jefferson that said something like 'We should have a free and equal education to have an informed voting citizenship.' (a paraphrase). I have 5 children. 1 is a nurse, one is a policeman (SWAT and Dive team member), one is an electrician (in school had terrible times, hates school and will never grace the front steps of any more education buildings. (2 are still in school)
If you measure the one with the highest income, a lasting marriage with children as success- it would be the electrician that is the only one without any higher education. Let's all realize, someone has to build roads and make the power plants work and stay clean, and water/sewer systems work, where are the farriers today? (there is a shortage here, and they are brought in from other countries.
Who is our competition? it's not the Fin's. Japan has an incredible suicide rate for those under 18, China is well, where is China? We are just giving our economy over to them. Look to the grassroots for a healing and take care of our infrastructure. It is interesting how well students do when they study things they see a future in and want to do. It is amazing when you give a student a chance to absorb / reinforce what they learned (study hall), or more than 20 minutes for a sad lunch. What ever happened to giving an individual a chance to mature and grow? All of us grow and mature at different times and at a different pace. Wasn't it Pogo that said 'I has seen the enemy! And he are us!'.

I found your reply interesting and right on, but I don't think think we are looking to the FInn's as "competition" per se, but I speak for myself here in saying I looked at the replies regarding Finland as "what are WE doing wrong?". I'm not going to pick up and move to Finland or anywhere else, I'd like to get things back to good here.
I had to sigh when you mentioned the "sad lunch", the kids do not get enough time to eat lunch, my kids come home and tell me how they "didn't have time to eat everything". I don't know how to change that....I've tried, it's like I'm the only one complaining and the school principal makes out like I have a grudge against the school.
I'm looking forward to more interesting replies.

As a legal immigrant from a "third-world country," I learned that "its" when used as an impersonal possessive pronoun takes no apostrophe. It's is the abbreviated form of it is. The way to make the difference is to say "it is" when reading your sentence. If it makes no sense, then more than likely, you should us its. Hope that helps in the future.

Thank you for your post. Unfortunately, you did what I often do. I advise on a grammar trick and forget to add a letter to use.

I went to school in Finland for one year. It is far far superior to American schools. Whoever wants to argue that, don't try. Their schools are out of this world amazing and I use many of their tactics in my classroom which works wonders in a very rough community.
Keep in mind though, Finnish boys have to do 1 year of military school and the culture is pretty homogenous. There are the Saame and the gypsies and that's all. Regardless, our schools need to become more like Finnish schools in terms of academics and not being competitive.

Finland besides that has no water pollution, very little air pollution, and crime and poverty is almost on non-existant.

I love your posts for the fact that in American society blue collar jobs are looked down upon. When I lived in Finland from August 2003-August 2004, I came to quickly learn that whether you are an electrician or a doctor, that both are treated with equal respect in Finland. Also, while university is free for Finnish youth, those who try it and hate it or do not ever want to step foot into uni, that they are mandated to go to trade school, therefore you will NEVER see Finnish youth hanging on the corner, getting into trouble like you do see in my neighborhood constantly (drug dealing).

Socialism depends where you are. I lived 1 year in Finland and 3 years in Canada, and the feeling of the socialism felt very different between the two countries. : )

So true!

Finnish is a very hard language, but I learned it cuz I was forced to living there in 2003. What they do in schools is only speak and administer tests to you in Finnish (again a VERY hard language, Spanish, French, even Japanese is a piece of cake) and so you better learn the language fast! I had to go to night school 3 evenings a week. They do not take time away from Finnish students to teach foreign students. This is the downfall of NCLB as non English speaking students are forced to take exams that many of them know they will fail (talk about giving kids low self esteem), whereas we should adopt a Finnish approach of allowing ESL students take the exams once the teacher has noticed they've reached the intermediate speaking/writing level.

Being a teacher, I cannot agree more. The US education system is nothing more than a corporation like that of Walmart.
You should visit a "ghetto school" as I teach in the inner city projects and they mandate kids here to do countless number of worksheets. I do not mean the creative worksheets that incorporate things like art (for example my students once did worksheets that allowed them to move about the room and find clues and then paint a map of Africa), I'm talking fill in the bubble worksheets. All children across America do those worthless sheets but it's far more in poor schools. Fill in the bubble worksheets only retain 15% of children's memories. In Finland, those sheets I swear would be illegal.

How right you are!

Hey, I lived in Tampere. I wasn't a teacher then but I did go help in some schools and remember the kids having to take off their shoes. Did they do that in your school?
You make me wanna go back!
Yes, it's amazing I work with poor youth (90% African American) and the second these kids walk into a school they are labelled as special needs (here in the USA) and I'm thinking at 7 yrs. old in Finland if a child can't read they don't see it as a problem, and voila! there you have it 100% literacy rate in Finland. Finnish kids are not rushed as you and I both know. This doesn't mean that I'm going to be all la-dee-dah about a child who is behind in my classroom, but I will tell you something being young and a new teacher they can tell me "how good special edu is" but honestly, I am VERY slow into placing a child into special edu (esp. a Black boy) b/c most are kept in low-track classes their entire lives.

"We have much to learn from the gentleness of Finnish ways."

What the man/woman is describing here is that violence is NOT part of the Finnish culture. Finns do not see violence ever being funny, such as in movies or cartoons. Finns do not get angry anywhere near as fast as Americans. Also, their kids are extremely polite and calm. The entire year I lived there I never once saw a child throw a tantrum. The people are very calm and very quiet (unless drunk). That may sound stereotypical, but that's really the way it was.

True they have much more homogenity and this definitely plays a role. Also, they only allow a small amount of foreigners into their country per year. There is some diversity (mostly the Saame and the gypsies/Roma). This definitely helps as everyone comes with the same set of values to school.

PS. For those who don't know Suomi means Finland

Homogenous only plays a tiny role, the reason Finland does so well is that the administrators are not corrupt, money makers like in the US.

In 2007 there were 132600 foreign citizens in Finland. The estimated number of Finns is at the moment 5,244,749

Top ten 2007 Foreign Citizens in Finland are
Russians 26200
Estonians 20000
Swedes 8400
Somalis 4800
Chinese 3900
Thais 3500
Germans 3300
Turks 3200
Britts 3200
Iraqis 3000

References:
www.migri.fi/netcomm/content.asp?article=1987

www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/fi.html

It is all very simple and you can do it yourself! 1) Read the article from the Wall Street Journal, available on this site. 2) Go to Google and enter Education and training in Finland. Push Search. You will find a 7 page article on the topic. 3) Ask yourself " Can we do this in America?"

Interesting!
I met quite a few Turks in Tampere too.

My father has been a teacher all his life. He has taught in South Africa, England and the US in Mass.at Groton and in Ca. at the community colleges. Guess what! He says teaching is one of the hardest jobs to do properly and if you don't pay enough ( and for a full year not just 9 months) you don't get very good teachers! Plus all teachers would have to be properly evaluated on their teaching skills. Also the school year is way too short with too many vacations. The school hours are way too short ( he went to school from 8am until 4pm and half days on Saturdays,he only had a month off in the summer and a month off in the winter) Most of our teaching methods are weak, and he always said I never had enough proper homework and that most of what I had to do was busy work and did not help me to understand what I was supposed to learn! I could go on and on! Probably that's why I am a nurse not a teacher!

I don't believe that the common Finnish teaching methods would work with the general populace in the United States. We have so much more diversity here -- kids coming to school with very different issues and challenges. (The poster who mentioned the very low crime rate and low rate of violence was totally correct -- the Finnish tolerate a lot less violence than we do in the U.S.) Something else to think about is that the Finnish language is much "easier" to read than English -- each letter has only one sound while I think that we have at least 43 sounds represented by 26 letters in the written English language. While there are cases of dyslexia etc. in Finnish schools -- the related issues are handled much better than here in the U.S. because the teachers are better educated about how to deal with learning differences than U.S. teachers. Very few U.S. teachers are taught anything worthwhile about learning differences. (I've found that even some of the better teachers are ill-informed about issues related to dyslexia, auditory processing, etc. -- and have no incentive to become informed because they're too darn busy having to deal with lack of support as well as standarised testing nonsense...)

I had hoped for some input from the frustrated parents out there concerning education in Finland as opposed to that we are currently experiencing in the U.S. There can be no doubt that the Finnish system works much better than ours, so I laid out some clues for all of you to find out why this is so in my comment dated May 12. Go back to the original question posed by fedup52 on March 4. Then ask yourself " Can we do this in our country?" And why not? There are several obvious answers that I can think of, but I want to hear from you, our members. Will somebody please tell me what you think?

Reading through all these comments, I am disappointed to hear so much finger pointing and so few constructive suggestions. Schools in the US are falling behind and have problems, for sure, and I do believe we have lessons to learn from Finnish schools and their society in general, but this is not Finland. So what can we do about it?
Those suggesting the problems with our schools are due to money hungry administrators are nuts, in my opinion. If you consider what is required of the schools by the federal government (NCLB, etc.), then consider the lack of funding for programs, teacher development, compensation and everything else, then consider the lack of parental involvement and accountability (by some, probably not those of us on greatschools), the hands of school administrators are tied. Increased taxes, increased funding for education could greatly improve the state of our schools, if by no other means, encouraging more of those qualified to become teachers. But we are in a recetion (arguably) and an election time and who wants to pay more taxes?
For those of you suggesting kids shouldn't start school until 7 years old, that would mean two more years of daycare for most families. Is that better than school?
For those of you suggesting it is ESL students causing slower progression in the classroom, I suggest you spend some time in the classroom, if you don't already. I spend two hours a week at my daughter's small town Arizona school. We have about 35% first generation Americans, many of whom do not speak English well. At least at our school, these kids are in no way slowing down the learning in the classroom. Generally speaking, the parents of these kids take their education very very seriously and respond proactively to all comments and suggestions about their children. They are very well behaved and it is behavioral problems that slow down the learning process much more than a language barrier. Take a look at the kids who have behavior problems. How well do they speak English? And if the ESL kids did slow down the learning process, what would be your suggestion? Don't teach them? Uneducated immigrants would greatly increase crime rates. Is that better? Maybe you'd suggest segregation? That worked well before, right?
We are not Finland. Yes, we have problems, but lets use this forum to come up with some brainstorming of solutions. The blame game doesn't get anybody anywhere.

Possibilities:

We can support candidates who fund and support education
We can participate in the PTA and listen to what school officials need to make your school a better place
We can take our children to schools that represent our views of model schools
We can write letters to our representatives expressing our concerns
We can wholly support our children and others in the community
Join the Big Brothers Big Sisters school program (spend an hour a week at school with a child who needs a little extra help)

What else? Who can help me out? Add to the list!

I can clearly remember in the state of California where i was born and raised, went to public schools and then college, the state lottery promised so much money to "our schools". With many important subjects wiped off schools' cirriculum (music, P.E. to name two) how does doing so leave schools with "lack of funds"? I also know, now, as a parent, EVERY school my kids have attended has a list of school supplies (made by the school) that we parents have to buy before school starts. Those supplies use to be provided by the school. Honestly, it sounds to me that schools have NOT been supported but by those parents that can afford it!! As a concerned citizen and parent: where are those monies going? Does anybody know?? Where can I go to personally see the benefits of the state lottery's generosity? Somebody is filling their pockets somewhere...there doesn't seem to be a balance.

MommaCat, especially, and the other contributors as well, I remember having the same questions about 12-20 years ago before we moved from CA to WA. One answer to your question regarding where the lottery money is spent: Funding the UNFUNDED mandates handed to the states from the federal government is a burden for all public schools. Truly, many of the funding woes are much worse over the past 8-10 years because the illegal immigration is especially burdensome to CA public schools at all levels. Many began with various changes to our education funding priorities, such as mainstreaming special needs children and requirements for all children to be given equal access, such as Title IX (extra curricular events, such as sports teams for girls and boys). As one of the the other contributors recently posted, we need solutions. I am not able to give you up-to-date information regarding the lottery money but I actually remember one of our committee members finding the exact breakdown and presenting it to our team. Good luck! Most importantly, stay involved and take the time to be an active partner within your local community and volunteer to give time or money. It is a worthwhile investment!

I have worked with development delayed children, in alternative education, and the lead counselor in a crisis center. I have taught upper class and grad classes in a University. Many of the problems discussed seem to be with the early years which are critical. However there seems to me to be a real separation in what to do with high school students.

All individuals develop at different paces clearly. We somehow expect this person to be exactly where that person is in development. Big problem.

We worry about our students going to college. Why? We should prepare them for it before funding colleges with public money ear marked for public education. In Florida millions go straight to State colleges direct from the lottery. Mmmmm-great idea, however, if the success of those that make it to a college is doomed to either just 2 years or complete drop out of college, what have we provided?

In Florida billions over the years have been spent on the now infamous FCAT. If you look at the costs of FCAT - Oh, wait you can't find the budget because the information you find is only pieces. i don't think anyone really knows. Every time I here an amount.Then I ask a question and find it only covered a small piece. ( high schools pay an adm title just for practice and over seeing testing of standardized tests and FCAT).
I see students coming to classes with their heads down, refusing and arguing that they don't have to do anything. It turns out they are told they can walk with their grad class if they stay in school sign off on important test, and pass a type of GED, called an exit program. Are you saying that isn't for adm money for their schools? It is one of the biggest behavior problems I have ever seen. It causes others in the class to say, if he doesn't have to do anything I don't either and I will pass. Uh- No! but they somehow believe this.
Yes, there are problems; I teach in an area which calls itself the horse capital of the world (not kentucky, but no triple crown race has been run without at least 2-4 horses from our area). Yet almost none of the teachers I have talked to in the Ag Magnet High School even know what a Farrier even is much less what he does.
A good Farrier in this area can make more than a teacher. We are losing our own infrastructure. We are losing our own local personalities and blurring into this strange idea that we need to have all students compete at this global arena when so few won't even leave the area they live in except for vacation.
Complaints - no - observations yes.
Solutions? start by spending your money on local economic solutions within education. Not the world. The world will take care of itself and we will control what we need to if we are healthy first.

The article about Finnish educational system and students is a known fact for quite sometime now. I am not a product of US based school system and have done quite well for myself. Now that my children go to elementary school here in Michigan, I see many weeknessess as well as strengths. However, that's another debate all by itself. The reason why I don't believe that the Finnish Educational System can be implemented here in the US has got nothing to do with "homogeneity or diversity" ....it's all of us "Parents." We don't let our children and schools catch a break! We are extremely intrusive at the school and want to know details of every single min our child spent outside the house! At the slightest issue (non-issue really!), we jump to conclusions usually against the teacher and possible against the entire school administration! And by any stroke of luck, our child becomes one of the top students in the class, watch out, we label him "gifted" and start yet another fight as to "how to save our gifted children from the rest of the world!!" The list goes on and on. We don't realise that we are not raising children anymore, we are raising "entitlement" and it's scary!

I agree...seems more and more people/parents value individuals by simply "existing" instead of valueing their good deads, achievements and hard work.
Well said.

Few parents are that involved with their children by the time the students are in high school.
Schools allow electronic games and small computers, cell telephones...
Before I was certified to teach in Alaska (arctic regions) I had to study school systems circum-polar. Even funding and taxation becomes very odd.

I only see where the US is better at including everyone in numbers through 1st - 12th grade.

I don't completely follow the panic that has been created by and large by the media about a global economy. If we are suppose to be competing against the top countries, then why aren't the Finnish people eating us up economically. Because we are sending contracts to Russia, Chinese~.
Why worry of a global economy if our local one isn't supported strongly. What does it mean when the numbers we are dealing with are percentages but the than anywhere else

There is a new teacher in my fitness class. She has only been teaching one year,( the first year being with 7th graders). This fall she will teach 6th graders in a 4th through 8th grade public school. She was rasied in Pakistan and is used to a British system school with uniform etc. She says she is trying hard but the biggest difference is the amount of respect the children give their teachers or rather much less respect than she was used to giving her teachers. She says she is supposed to be teaching Social studies and English, last year she also was made to teach sciences which is not her backgroungd and the children know when you are not teaching your speciality and that makes it harder.I wonder how long she will last?

najarvis, so your concern about the teacher is how long will she last or how much respect students pay to the teachers!? Where I come from, teachers are considered 2nd parents and the respect goes with that. Respect for teachers start at home and teaching is considered a very noble profession. I'm not so sure how your response fit this particular thread. Would you like to clarify? :)

In the last comments there is a discussion about a teacher from Pakistan both dealing with the cultural differences - respect of the teacher - and teaching multiple subjects and out of field. I believe the writer is right on the target.
Many students are disrespectful. Often, i have had parents tell me just not to call or bother them - I have had parents become outraged at the fact their 'child' has done something so terrible and why do the teachers at this school pick on her child (of 17 years old)
One of the reasons I am leaving teaching? The adm. in my school had me teaching British Lit., American Lit. (2 classes), English, Physical Science and Biology I.
That covers 5 subjects in 6 periods, in 4 disciplines, in 3 grades. They also had me as the student facilitator for 26 students with only one period I was finally given in the last semester for that responsibility. Our school boast of an 18 students per classroom ratio. We were given 45 minutes before school for planning an avg of about 3 days a week the other 2 were in meetings.
I guess we look good on paper. I just think many schools have very nice people managing them with no idea how to implement the incredible strange laws being passed that have nothing to do with education, written by legislators that have no idea about educating our youth.
As I look over what i know about the Finland's system, and ours is that the Finn's talk care of their own local needs first in education, and raise up the student. How many states do we have that has the population of Finland. All of them. How much cultural diversity will you find in Finland? Almost none. How many total students attend college in Finland? How many Finn's attend college in the U.S.?
The U.S. covers so much in diversity, and area - there really is no comparison. We need to relax and take care of ourselves first. Don't give away the infrastructure that made us a great country - it is what we are doing.
The world economy we are being told we have to keep up with? It is only after we send our mfg over seas to Mmm maybe China - and then we pay them for what they are producing (that our companies sent over there to produce)
By the way - Where are the Finn's in the world economy?
Our Children are most important, and their education is our future. Take care of our own local economy first and let the local state and county have a say so in it. I understand standardized testing and i am not against it, however, in Florida in my school last year we spent at least 2 class periods a week working / practicing / teaching to a standardized test.

My father has been teaching in some form or other most of his life. However he mostly taught in private schools in South Africa, England, and in the U.S. until he taught at Foothill and Canada colleges.He has mainly taught either math or physics. He has a Master's degree in phsyics and a Phd in Statiscis from Stanford in the educational department. He will tell you that there is often very little respect from public school enviroments as compared to private school enviroments. He was fine when he taught at night when I was in high school and college. But he finally retired from his job in the private electronics industry and decided to go back to teaching. He taught at Canada for 2 semesters, mostly Algerbra I and guess what? He had students who clearly still did not know the basics of math such as adding , subtracting, multiplying. He also complained that many of the students failed to come to class and also failed to do their homework and often missed tests and then expected that he give them makeup test without talking to him prior to the test date. When students failed the final or got a "D" ( they were the students failing to come to class and missing homework and not taking tests) they then complained and could not understand why they had failed.He also had to deal with some program that Canada has that is supposed to support the student that are from the Sequioa High school and East Palo Alto districts. He actually had to explain to the progragm why he failed these students.

You really think that most teachers are respected? Then again, its hard when we do not have the best prepared teachers dealing with children who know they might know more than the teacher.
Maybe in private schools or wealthy public school districts like Palo Alto or Saratoga or if the students are mostly Asian( their cultural expectations are that teachers are respected.) But have I ever had the desire to teach after years of watching my father teach? The answer is No. Because it is very hard work and requires a lot of time and effort on the part of the teacher if you do it properly( watching my father spend hours on his lesson plans, homework assignments and in class assignments convinved me of that!) Believe me education in the U.S is a mess, and in order to get the best people into teaching we need to make the job well paid and well respected, neither of which is true at the moment.But at the very least families could try to teach their children to respect their teachers and the school.

Does anyone else feel it is important for all of us to proof read our comments? It is ironic; we are discussing education issues and making so many errors in spelling, grammar, and 'typos'. *LOL*

I am reading many of the comments; all are quite interesting and thought provoking. My thoughts on the article are quite different though. What I read in the article is that yes, the quality of the educators is excellent, but the most important difference in the Finnish system is the lack of stress and competition among the students and the parents. There is no ranking or valedictorians, classes are laid back, everyone is "gifted" so to speak, and the students READ a lot. The homework level is very low, and they are in effect allowed to be children and teenagers - learning from play and books, family time and games at home, summer jobs and just hanging out. This, as we all know, is not the norm in most American homes or schools. I would suspect that there is no such thing as US World and News Report college rankings, Kaplan courses, 3 1/2 hours of homework, deadly boring summer reading (anyone with Frankenstein on their child's high school summer reading list), or summer All Star sports teams.

I do not know how to begin to help our students take back being kids. The Finnish study of how smart these kids are suggests that less testing, ranking and competition may in effect make students smarter and more competitive in the global work force eventually.

I think that you are on the money about the competition. Everything about our schools is hard pounding and stressed out. The standardized testing is almost to a single focused idea. Which brings up some strange questions about the studies of the Finn's.

The diversity and quantity of the students are radically different from all large countries, especially the U.S.

If there is no real competition and no concern of rankings then the questions arise about the validity of the studies. My first experiences in eduction was the discovery of the number of bad studies and the number of good studies with incorrect interpretation and or manipulation of the statistics.

In this case, why would a none competitive country even throw it's name in the circle to compete against strict hard driving competitive countries like Japan, Germany, China, U.S. -...
Remember Japan has the highest rate of under-18 suicides in the world due to the education system and work ethic being so strong and hard driving.

I really never understood why we want to compare ourselves to anyone else with our college, University, and trade schools. Nowhere else in the world makes education so available but here in the U.S. where there are so many none U.S. students studying.

Why don't we look to our own local strengths - as our founding fathers set things up. Leave it up to our own personal states where we live to maintain ourselves? This is our true strength. If we fail to plan locally (county, and state), we plan to fail.

Our personal attempts to be strong locally (in Florida is the FCAT) is horribly culturally biased and confusing at times at best. It has created a situation that created many new reading remediation, and remedial math classes. Sounds good, until you realize it was at the expense of shop classes and basic life type classes. Now there are almost no wood, metals, welding shop classes to learn things like safety (reading) and measurements (hands on geometry, and algebra). Few business math, home economics and personal banking classes (hands on).

Yet we still have questions on the early grades FCAT testing asking about the 'par for a hole' referring to golf. In the 6th grade you might know the meaning of par, but if you don't know golf. Why would that be important, to know golf?

Here the questions like this were laughable. Here a farrier is important and most teachers have no idea what a farrier is or does. And yes, in our county in FL where a farrier can make more than a teacher. There are no questions on the FCAT about farriers or basic horse care (our county is called the Horse capital of the world).
I do get lost in the competitive importance of our international status when responsibility to our own local needs are not being met first. Only then can we play, who has the biggest biceps.
Competition isn't always good. Basics come in first. A competitive team in any sport is only as good as it's infrastructure and understanding of the basics of are. Why would we throw out teaching our youth the basic idea of what the lines on a basketball court are there for, and then wonder why the youth are confused playing the game on the court? Basic knowledge first, and taught in a way the students learn. Some do not learn best by having 'See Jane run' stories drilled down their throats in high school reading classes. Age appropriate education with diversity using all modes of learning. I worry about the students making a living by laying the asphalt for the roads, or maintaining the sewer and water plants. Not how to be more competitive against China when we send everything over there to start with. Makes no sense to me.

I'm not surprised about this study. That being said, I would attribute America's inability to keep a quality teacher in the classroom to the growing student misconduct in the classroom. I used to teach at the high school level at a well respected private school. There were teachers with 20+ years of experience sobbing in the break room on a daily basis due to student behavior. They said that test scores along with student motivation decreased a bit every year and has been exponential in the past ten. More times than not, it was the sturdy administration that kept us sane. I only made it two years. There were five other fairly new teachers who quit at the end of the year. Teachers are not given the chance to become the highly skilled 20 year teachers because they burn out after two. It is so sad; we all started with such excitement and grand plans. It quickly deteriorates to where 90% of our evening lesson planning is based around how to control certain students and not spark a major disruption. When this happens, most of the challenging lessons that newbie teachers were excited to roll out are left on the cutting room floor...but at least this person wasn't touching that person, and that 17 year old didn't have a hissy fit on the classroom floor taking up 15 minutes of class time while the dean was called to scrape him off the floor and take him to the office.

I'm sorry for my lack of paragraphing and flow of consciousness style; but, I've been up all night with an unhappy newborn and am seeing stars. Maybe I shouldn't go opining on the internet in this condition!

Most of the comments/problems, including but not limited to disrespectful students, seem like they could be helped, if not solved, by the elimination of rankings and a decrease in competition.

How can this be manifested and what can an individual do to help the process along? Are there potential downfalls to decreasing rankings and competition in the school system?

We've beat a dead horse discussing problems. What can we do to make it better?

Respect for teachers (just as everything else such as respect for your elders, money, food etc!) comes from home. This requires a "cultural change" that is hard to address but maybe helped in schools! Teachers also have to be a little more tolerant towards students and their parents and not feel offended everytime some parent question their style of teaching.
There is also nothing wrong with a healthy competition...don't we all compete in sports?? Now that's something we should really do to have fun!

I can tell you that American students are not behind everyone else after they are through. Most countries "track" students according to test scores and place them in "tracks" where they then go to apprenticeship type schools, or lower level universities. In America, our students are not burned out by the time they hit college, in fact that is when many start to blossom. There are always exceptions to any rule, but I refuse to believe that our education system is ranked as bad as it is. Could it use a lot of improvement? Oh yes! Are our kids stupid compared to other kids? Again I would say no. Our students are taught to think much more, use creativity, and work together. Right now, you can't test for those, and those don't show up on studies because it's hard to quantify creativity. Look at high tech. Apple computers designed in the US. Intel and AMD, designed in the US. Microsoft and Apple, again the US. The actual internet - again the US. IBM, Cisco, Oracle,and Sun are US based. If Americans are so stupid, why are the cutting edge technologies coming from America (they may be made elsewhere, but the research is US based)? The biggest tech device out there is the Iphone - designed in the US. All of the major computer systems use American/Canadian designed CPU's (Intel and AMD). Biggest computer company - US based HP. And Americans are supposed to be far behind other countries... What's Nokia's (Finland) market share for phones versus the Iphone and Canada's (which has a similar academic system) Blackberry (made by RIM)? What are the two hottest phones on the market? What are these other countries inventing that Americans are not. What has Finland invented (besides Nokia which is falling fast)? Japan is excellent at adapting technology, but not so great at inventing anything.

I would suggest to anyone out there, go to a foreign country and ask them where they would love to live if they could go anywhere. I think we Americans grow up thinking we have to beat ourselves up. We are not so bad. That does not mean that we cannot improve, or that everyone else is stupid or dumb, but go around the world and see what other countries are like (and I don't mean stay at the Club Med and tell me how nice it is. Walk outside the Club Med or resort and it's a whole different world!) - and then we'll talk.

I enjoyed reading your comments, I have seen "life outside the U.S." and agree with what you say. I think that if we allow our children to be free to think/question/wonder etc. -to nourish that as parents- we will help them in their pursuit. We are a great country, of course we're not perfect but we are striving to improve; we are a giving & gracious country, I wish people would put that into perspective as well.

Call me old fashioned. It is true. I graduated from High School in 1950 in a small city in the midwest. It is my belief that that was when things started to go bad with our society and especially our youth. Respect for their teachers went out the window. When kids stopped saying "Sir" and "Mam" to their elders and their teachers that was the beginning of the end.

RIGHT ON FEDUP52!!! Any advice on how we, as parents can be most effective in doing something about this?

I agree with you, Mommacat! My son, all through elementary had so much homework, that did not make sense half the time was overburdened. After some time, it was quite obvious to me that "someone" had a status quo to meet. Not to the benefit of really educating.

Good Point LSCegypt. However, what about the kids that don't make it to college? Those that are not technically inclined? How are those that are "insanely creative" supported in the education system? How are those that learn differently supported?

Well since March they have managed to chip off some more veneer. If parents want to really attempt a change in the school which their child attends, I believe that first you have to network the parents who are currently not active. Then as a group you hijack the PTO and vote yourselves in (make sure you have more parents than teachers) and be prepared to fight.

Honestly I do believe this. At the last School Advisory Council of the year, the science teacher in response to "how do we fix bathrooms being without soap, towels, and toilet paper?" said "they still have water and" then she did the classic wiping her hands on her shirt front. State law prohibits the school from withholding these items but it happens across the nation because a few vandals use these items to trash the bathrooms. So instead of finding and correcting these individuals they just remove the items. So much for those health classes the school teaches to every grade! I even enlisted the health department and they even are stymied as to how to proceed as they have the ruling those items must be in the bathroom; but they have no reprecussions to bring against the school to make them do so.

This is truly the state of education in this country. I have invested in a lap top with mirpophone and webcam and I intend on being at every meeting and then I am pushing for the directory listing so that I can put this in the hands of the parents who "think" everything is good at school for their child. I have contacted the local neighborhoods and have requested time to come and speak at their meetings regarding our schools. I have gotten some positive responses to that.

I have tried to start dialogue with youth groups in the area. When I discussed with my neighbor who has two children at the same school, she called them out to ask about the bathrooms. They both said yes it was true. She was dumbfounded they had said nothing. Remember they are the children and we are the adults. To top it off, she works with special needs students that feed into this middle school and her spouse is a teacher for the district and they had never heard of this practice. I have corresponded with educators in Michigan, D.C., and Maryland that this is the typical action taken by the administration when the bathrooms are vandalized. Has it stopped the vandalism? NO! But this is their only response to the situation. Is the adminstration showing adult qualities or just retailatory? You decide.

These are some of the ideas I am implementing and only time will tell if it is successful. Of one thing I do know, it has not made me consumer friendly to the administration. And be prepared for them to target your child. This is not an opinion formulated by me, but expressed from hundreds of parents mouths who keep saying "they only have to get graduated and then it's over", "I want my child to stay under the radar" Huh?

I can only hope that my post puts the fire in your belly to stand up and be the adult you are and more, for your child and all the other children.

Upon reading your contribution, (it flowed fine, by the way.) It came to me that maybe if teachers came forth and truly communicated to the parents as to how difficult a day can be etc. then "together" we can find a resolve. The kids that disrupts others' education should lose the priviledge and/or suffer the consequences of his/her actions.
Teachers should not burn-out! REMOVE THE PROBLEM(S)!
THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE PEOPLE!

Your openess is refreshing. It's been my experience as an involved parent, just wanting the best for our kids, that anytime I've tried to get to the bottom of an issue...the teachers are so defensive. We all want the same thing. Let's talk and then DO!

O.k. You're designated Editor! Congrats!!!

How do we take our kids back? I guess the overwhelming homeschooling that's going on should be a big wake up call!!! I would homeschool if I did not have to work 10 hours a day! (single mom, two boys)
So homeschooling is not an option for me.

Let's see...how can I take my kids back is the question. They have to perform as required by the school or they fail.

Any ideas out there?

This was an excellent article! Thanks! It also addressed the many fundamental factors which make comparing our two countries difficult to do. I have friends in both Helsinki and Stockholm. It is true the Scandanavian countries as a whole are ahead of us. Their approach to education is developmental and child centered. We used to be that way. After Sputnik went up in the 1960's, the US decided to change our approach to education. It is unfortunate. This was the beginning of our educational slide, but it can be reversed if we take politics out of the equation and focus once again on our kids. Politicians are not educators. They should not be dictating our policies.

WOW! You have said it all! I am living this right now. My children are being just like you said "practiced on." It is horrible! When I seek help through the school liasons or other school transition officials the only option I am given is to homeschool. I would like to place them in private school I cant afford it for 3 children. So what am I to do? Choose between my children? "Hmm which of my children is showing the most promise?" Rediculous. Here is a site you may find interesting www.opencongress.org/ you can follow all the bills and amendments and things that have to do with education as well as other areas of interst. H.R. 7203 is bill that is before congress right now. Trying to get equal education nation wide. Please, if you have any further suggestions let me know. I have written congress and the Secretary of Defense.
P.S. we are a military family.

You are right! I am very active in my childrens education. I thought that was what teachers wanted. Apparently not all of them. I feel like our communication is oneside the one side being me. I volunteer in my youngest childs class room often and I feel like I am unwanted. Other teachers compliment me on being there but not our teacher!
Also I didnt know that once your children reach middle school you are just suppose to sit back and not take an active role anymore. Preposterous! The Tweens and Teens need us more! I plan to be there for evey step of my childrens education whether I am wanted or not. I am there to support my children! I hope that one day soon something changes. I would hate to continue to hand down the frustration of dealing with a broken education system from parent to parent. What can we do?!

It's so good to read the advice to stay active in your child's education as they move into the higher grades. My two children knew no different and didn't question my presence, even in high school. I worked/volunteered to the benefit of all children, not just my own. As a teacher now, I believe that teacher education programs should require a course on working with parents in the school setting and parents should be required to take a course on working with a teacher! Open the communication.